C4 planetary gear mods.. - Ford Muscle Forums : Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum

gregaust · 02-04-2003, 05:50 AM

Ok we've covered pretty much everything else but here's the next step for C4 mods..How about doing our own front planetary mods with roller bearings.They are available but it's more fun to do it yourself.The most failure prone part in the gearset is the thrust washer at the bottom of the gear.Now if you cut into the case and add a roller bearing it should eliminate that prob..The only other mod would be the use of a C5 sun gear with the larger oil feed holes ..I know a good rebuilt stock setup can last ok but this would be better.
Here's a pic to get you thinking..

[ This Message was edited by: gregaust on 2/4/03 5:52pm ]

SCOTT · 02-04-2003, 02:02 PM

And a front hub mod and c5 pump machined with bearing installed

And output hub machined with bearing

I dont have a pic of the aluminum rear planet but it is machined as well.

[ This Message was edited by: SCOTT on 2/5/03 2:09am ]

Tim R · 02-04-2003, 07:43 PM

Greg,
Great idea only how do we get the pins out to disassemble them, and where can replacement gears be obtained without taking apart rear planataries as donors.

Scott,
Glad to see you are using the roller mod instructions and doing even more on your own this is great stuff.
Tim R

[ This Message was edited by: Tim R on 2/5/03 8:10am ]

gregaust · 02-05-2003, 06:10 AM

Getting the pins out is easy.What i do is to tap on the pin from the top and bottom lightly ,not to hard as to distort the planet housing.This shears the little loate pin.The little pin is only through the out side,it doesn't go right through.
When i refit the rollers and pins i drill the hole deeper and use a 3/32" rollpin so it goes right through into the other side of the housing..
Yep ,your right on the pins and the gears.iI don't have an answer,just collect all the old C4's you can for spares i guess..
I'm going to do some measuring and see what i can come up with for the bearing..

[ This Message was edited by: gregaust on 2/5/03 6:11pm ]

cmf60 · 02-05-2003, 06:19 AM

Greg and Tim, Chris here from NZ...thanks you guys for the stuff you sent. Greg, I've been toying with this idea also. Has merit. On pulling my trans apart, I found that the thrust with by far the greatest wear was the no. 9 thrust behind the one way clutch. I have found a small timkin bearing to fit it and to get clearance the inner race will need cut down (there's no spline there anyway) much like the one in pic 14 of the Light-O-Matic article. I believe this to be the most important bearing as it appears everthing is thrust rearward.
I also doing my own 6 gear planetery using gears from a reverse planetery. I was studying a pic of a 6 gear PA and noticed they had just machined a stock hubs cutouts to make room for the two gears per hole. Then they redrilled for the gear center pins and moved the retaining roll pins to the other side of the hub. It's going to cost me around NZ$100 for the machining but its a heck of a lot cheaper than buying one of theirs. Will email a pic when completed.
I really think that no. 9 bearing is a must though.....

[ This Message was edited by: cmf60 on 2/5/03 6:24pm ]

gregaust · 02-05-2003, 06:53 AM

Chris ,i don't remember if i sent you the pic of the C5 oil mod to the #9 bearing ,if i haven't let me know..It would help the thrust washer live..
I have done a similar mod on a C6 #9 thrust and they show barely any wear on a couple i have checked..
By all means i would be interested in any pics you have on your mods as i'm sure Tim and the other guys would be too...

I wonder what happened to the pics from 89COUPE on the P.A trans....

SCOTT · 02-05-2003, 02:58 PM

[quote]
On 2003-02-05 06:19, cmf60 wrote:
I was studying a pic of a 6 gear PA and noticed they had just machined a stock hubs cutouts to make room for the two gears per hole. Then they redrilled for the gear center pins and moved the retaining roll pins to the other side of the hub.

The PA 6 gear planet is not a redone stock peice. Hear is a pic, if it was it would still have holes in the old rollpin locations...wouldn't it???????

cmf60 · 02-05-2003, 03:09 PM

Scott, The extra "hole" between the two planetery gear center pin holes is the original center pin location. You can still plainly see the "nick" in the edge of the housing where the original locating roll pin was. Thats why they've shifted there two locating roll pin locations to the rear of the hub....not enough room left on the front of it for both. If its not a redone hub why would they put the nick for the roll pin on the unused center hole??
Yes Greg you did send me the oil mod pic and I have already bored the hole. The trans I've got had a 0.008" to 0.010" groove in the rear thrust washer where the inner clutch hub was running. No extra oil hole there ofcourse. To me if everything is thrust rearward, that is the place that takes ALL the pain wouldn't it?

[ This Message was edited by: cmf60 on 2/6/03 3:14am ]

[ This Message was edited by: cmf60 on 2/6/03 3:24am ]

SCOTT · 02-05-2003, 04:47 PM

But I don't see the old roll pin holes, I see "nick" and I see the old gear hole, but.......

Tim R · 02-05-2003, 05:11 PM

Say guys while we are talking about the 6 pinion planatary, I was wondering how much end play should there be between the gear and hub after it is machined and has thrust bearings replaced with rollers. I am curious as I put one of those PA ones in for a fella some time ago and I remember that I didn't like all of the play they had left in there the gears had lots of side clearance, no rock or anything just lots of end play.

cmf60 · 02-06-2003, 04:27 AM

Tim, from what I've read here and there, they talk about 0.015" max thrust movement, which seems a heck of alot to me but I guess it shouldn't worry it too much.

Scott, I guess they may not be remanufactured planeteries. They may infact be new housings hence no roll pin hole. They sure look like a Ford one though eh? I'm only doing the planetery mod as its going to get some fairly high HP through it and I'm looking for reliability at a reasonable cost.

gregaust · 02-06-2003, 06:33 AM

I work on around .010"-.015" side clearance.I'd say they are left a little loose to let the oil in to the rollers,too tight i guess the rollers would starve of oil.
Do the P.A gearsets use a roller thrust between the gear and case like above?..The pic i posted was a dynamic set..

Just Strokin · 02-06-2003, 07:53 AM

Greg,

The PA set has a roller bearing also....or can use the stock thrust washer

http://www.usaplaza.com/scripts/wcom...roductID=32345

SCOTT · 02-06-2003, 12:06 PM

You don't have to machine the front planet to use a roller bearing, just use a bearing with a bigger i.d. than the old common chevy 350 stator one. Also, the bigger bearing has to add more stability and the smaller one. Any thoughts.....Here is a pic of my planet hub with bigger bearing, I cant remember any part numbers....sorry.

cmf60 · 02-06-2003, 03:49 PM

Greg, it looks like they justput thr roller on the rear of the hub? Conventional washer on the front?
That pic above of the PA planet was the one I was comparing to stock. Thought they just filled the old roll pin hole by the look of the mark on the hub but obviously not.