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Old 11-20-2003, 10:27 PM   #1 (permalink)
mac
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Cleveland VS Windsor

What's the difference between Windsor and Cleveland engines?
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Old 11-20-2003, 10:32 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Cleveland VS Windsor

a 351W is a small block, alot of 302 parts are compatible. Parts are easier to find, and more of them are built up.
351C, my personal fav., is a block from the 335[i think] engine series. not too many parts fit from a small block.
the bore and stroke are the same. windsor's water outlet from the block is through the manifold in the front, cleve. is just straight from the front top of the block.

i know i missed alot, but thats the basics to me
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Old 11-20-2003, 10:49 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Cleveland VS Windsor

both are small blocks. They both take small block bellhousings. The main differences are the heads. The cleveland has a canted valve lay out, with HUGE ports and valves. There are 2 different CLEVELANDS that is there were 2v and 4v. Both had more than generous ports, and valves. The big cleveland had 2.19" intake valves, and 1.71" exhaust valves. The intake ports could easily fit a lime into them.

Also the mains were smaller on the cleveland...2.75" I do believe. The 351C was only made 70-74 so the parts for it are just not as abundant as the more readily available 351 Windsor (go to australia where the Cleveland was built till the 80's and it is the opposite.) Because there are so many more Windsors out there than clevelands, the windsor got more attention with the aftermarket. Also a reason the aftermarket was so strong to the Windsor was because it was MUCH HARDER to make these go fast from the factory where as the Cleveland was much easier.

The 351 C was based after the BOSS 302, and was pretty much the same (more or less) as the BOSS 351.

Also, the cleveland Intake is dry, whereas the windsors is not.

Now maybe some Windsor people will come in and give you some more info...


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Old 11-20-2003, 11:51 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Cleveland VS Windsor

Actually the Boss302 was based on the Cleveland. It just was rushed out to meet the Trans-Am needs early.

The cleveland block (351) is smaller than the Windsor block overall. 9.200" deck height C, 9.48,9.503" on Windsor.

In Australia, the 302 is from the Cleveland family! Never made in the US.
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Old 11-21-2003, 12:22 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Cleveland VS Windsor

The C has oodles of horsepower more than a W All of the above, plus the C has 2.749 mains vs the W's 3". C has a shorter rod due to it's deck - 5.78 vs 5.955. Piston pin heights are different - don't have those figures handy.
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Old 11-21-2003, 02:39 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Cleveland VS Windsor

Quote:
On 2003-11-20 23:51, allenman85 wrote:
Actually the Boss302 was based on the Cleveland. It just was rushed out to meet the Trans-Am needs early.
The only commonality between the Boss 302 and the 351C/Boss 351 is the heads. That's it.
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Old 11-21-2003, 02:50 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Cleveland VS Windsor

So the Aussie Cleveland heads are actually 302 heads? I need a set for my C. These would be sweet....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2443589716

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Old 11-21-2003, 07:02 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Cleveland VS Windsor

Mightymach, I do not agree with your statment:
Quote:
both are small blocks. They both take small block bellhousings. The main differences are the heads.

I would say that the only thing they have in common is the boltcircle for the bellhousing and heads.
And that the Cleveland has the same bore and stroke as the Windsor.
The rest of the 335 family (351M and 400M) has the same bellhousing bolt pattern as the 385 family (429 and 460).

Allenman85:
The Boss 302 has slightly modified Cleveland heads.
If I recall this correct, I think itīs the water passage to the intakemanifold thats differs, since the Cleveland doesnīt have water in the intake.
Other than the heads the Boss302 doenīt have anything in common with the Cleveland.

Have a nice weekend,
Jalle
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Old 11-21-2003, 09:13 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Cleveland VS Windsor

Are you guys forgetting about the short-lived 302 tunnel port heads? They were developed for Trans-Am, before moving to the more readily available Cleveland heads...a bean counter solution to a performance problem.

The "Aussie" 2-v heads are suggested as an attempt to "civilize" the Clevelend heads for low rmp use on small block engines. Peak HP, will increase with 4-v heads, butlow/mid range intake velocity will be lower...usually causing a decrese in overall average HP under the useable rpm curve.
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Old 11-21-2003, 10:40 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Cleveland VS Windsor

Quote:
The "Aussie" 2-v heads are suggested as an attempt to "civilize" the Clevelend heads for low rmp use on small block engines. Peak HP, will increase with 4-v heads, butlow/mid range intake velocity will be lower...usually causing a decrese in overall average HP under the useable rpm curve.
True, but with the availablity of the Parker Funnelwebs and his port stuffers designed for that intake, a little extra work and $$$ changes that whole picture.

Also - The Aussi 2V's usually come in 58 cc chambers - about 11+:1 compression on a 2V engine. THe 4V heads run 62cc+, making a more manageable 10.5 or so.
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Old 11-21-2003, 10:45 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Cleveland VS Windsor

I still don't buy into the whole "2V head is better for the street" theory. I know that the smaller ports have better velocity and what not, and that they are adequately sized for a mild 'small' block. However, I have NEVER seen a 2V clev run with anywhere near as strong as a 4V clev. I've driven both and in various states of build-up. Basically, if I had a 2 bl Clev, I would keep the heads probably. But there is no way in the world I would remove the 4V heads and swap on some aussie heads like a lot of people are doing these days. It'd be like taking AFR 185's off of a windsor to swap on a set of stock iron castings. Enough of that......

As far as differences go:
Windsor: either 1.84/1.54 or 1.79/1.45 valves
Clevelands: can't remember the exact #'s, but bigger than any windsor ever had

Windsor: 6 valve cover bolts
Cleveland: 8 bolts

Windsor: traditional valvetrain geometry, pedestal or rail rockers
Cleveland: canted valves, pedestal mount rockers

Windsor: thermostat mounted on intake
Cleveland: mount on front of block

Windsor: aluminum timing cover
Clevland: thin sheetmetal timing cover, chain recessed in block

Both use the standard sbf bellhousing bolt pattern
Both have same bore and stroke, all else is different


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Old 11-21-2003, 11:07 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Cleveland VS Windsor

Doesnt the Cleavland block have a oiling problem vs.Windsor??
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Old 11-21-2003, 11:17 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Cleveland VS Windsor

I am in no way arguing with any of the above comments. They all have merit, in different ways, for different engine builds.

What you consider a "street able" engine may greatly differ from the next guy. When I was younger or as a weekend ride...I can tolerate a much more radical engine than one that I need to depend on daily, for commuting to and from work or the occasional 20-30 mile trip to a customer site during the work day.

I'm a car guy...if it burns fossil fuel and can get out of its own way...I'll drive it (or break it) . But there are some cars in my garage that are not my first choice for slippery roads, long trips or going to meet the in-laws.

I can't argue the point, that given correct circumstances, a Cleveland style head will generally out perform, produce more horsepower than comparable wedge (usually!), but that doesn't always make it the best choice. Just like Mopar found out, the old wedge headed FE's were known to spank even Hemi's in the right conditions, with the right tune.

When building an engine you need to look at the whole package, How much do you want to spend, what is the engine expected to do, what is its expected operating range (3K - 8K, 1500 to 6K), are you going EFI or not, how much fabrication are you willing to do to make th engine work in the chassis you are using?

Also, the cylinder spacing for the W vs C engine is the same, otherwise the heads (combustion chambers) wouldn't fit, they would be in the wrong position. There is a lot more similarity between the C and W engines that you would think. Ford has never been one to reinvent the wheel, when it isn't needed. As a personal opinion...that's why so many ford guys resist change. The Mod motors have been on the performance scene for 10 years, and they are just now being readily accepted, by the 5.0 crowd, as worth building. Same thing when they changed the design of the F-150. Ford guys are a stubborn lot!

The same thing happened when the 429-460 replaced the 428-427, the resistance was so great that Ford had to sell both engines as an option in the Fairlane / Torino 'cause a lot of guys didn't want to take a chance with the "new" motor, no matter how good it sounded on paper. The flat-head guys?...well, they will never change. The world is flat, and that's that.


[ This Message was edited by: Beoweolf on 11/21/03 11:35pm ]
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Old 11-21-2003, 03:20 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Cleveland VS Windsor

Quote:
On 2003-11-21 10:45, indigo66 wrote:
I still don't buy into the whole "2V head is better for the street" theory. I know that the smaller ports have better velocity and what not, and that they are adequately sized for a mild 'small' block. However, I have NEVER seen a 2V clev run with anywhere near as strong as a 4V clev. I've driven both and in various states of build-up. Basically, if I had a 2 bl Clev, I would keep the heads probably. But there is no way in the world I would remove the 4V heads and swap on some aussie heads like a lot of people are doing these days. It'd be like taking AFR 185's off of a windsor to swap on a set of stock iron castings. Enough of that......
I agree with you to a point. With my 4v build it was PLENTY streetable. Mileage was not great, and it burnt 91 octane. BUT 4.11's made up for the lack of low end. With all else being equal a 2v will out perform a 4v when built to drive primarily on the street (ie gears, cam) It is not untill you begin the 4v the way it was supposed to be built that it will out perform the 2v imho. Both have their pros and cons...but both require two different builds--if you built up a 4v (big cam low gears single plane big headers), and switched ONLY the heads to 2v heads it would have performed better with the 4v heads. But on the contrary if you build a 2v motor (smaller cam dual plane intake, smaller headers, high gears), and switched ONLY the heads to 4v heads it would have performed better with the 2v heads.

My take on it...

Jeff Given
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Old 08-23-2008, 07:44 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Cleveland VS Windsor

Doesn't the Windsor burn oil.
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