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Old 08-06-2006, 08:52 PM   #1 (permalink)
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how hard can you turn a STOCK 5.0?

i have a '84 F-150 the is lowered and has a carbureted 5.0. i was wondering how hard can you run a stock 5.0? a lot of people are telling me 6,000 maybe a little more but not all the time. i want to install a comp cams 280H with 280 dur. and 512" lift, and a prof. products hurricane intake, with a holley 750 dbl. pump (already have carb), pro comp ignition components and later on down the road some world products windsor sr. heads. is this possible on a low milage stock short block? i already have 1 5/8" headers and daul 3" exhaust. the rear is a 8.8 with 3.55 gears and a spool. also i have a b&m rebuilt C-6 from a 351W can i use this on my 5.0 with the proper mods. it was a strong tranny and i don t want to spend another $500 bucks on rebuilding the puny aod. please help!
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Old 08-06-2006, 10:43 PM   #2 (permalink)
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how hard can you turn a STOCK 5.0?

Valve springs are going to be your limiting factor here - the stock short block will handle 6000 RPM easy, but the valvetrain wont, especially with a 280H cam.

Not sure about the tranny, but you should be able to use a 351 c6 behind a 302/5.0

You'll be at the edge of the stock bottom ends strength if you do those mods though. I would upgrade to some stronger rod bolts at least, when you get to that point. Maybe even some new rods (or polish your existing ones and rebore them, but thats usually as much as new rods)
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Old 08-06-2006, 10:51 PM   #3 (permalink)
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how hard can you turn a STOCK 5.0?

greasemonkey,
Properly balanced the 5.0 will turn over six grand if you are using the nodular iron crank and 11/32" rod bolts from ARP. From the factory a 6200 RPM redline is likely to damage your engine. You are putting more cam in the engine than the heads can handle and too much carburetor for the street. With .512 lift you will have to install screw-in studs, guide plates and the non-rail rockers and valves. The spring perches will have to be milled to prevent coil bind and you should go to 3/8" pushrods. Any lift above .460" with the stock heads is worthless.
For a low milage stock engine limit your RPM to 5500 and a cam that peaks at 5000. Put in a windage tray and a good dual plane intake rated for 5500 RPM. The cam you select will have an SAE duration (at .050) of no more than 214 degrees and your carb should be close to 600 CFM for good throttle response or 700 for the best acceleration (vacuum secondaries). If you use the carb you have now when you stab the gas it is going to start off real good, fall flat into the biggest flat spot you can imagine and then accelerate out of that slowly at first and build as the flow builds up through the carb. With the right carb the setup that I describe will set you back in your seat and be a pleasure to drive. It will pull hard from about 1800 to 5500 which is right at the peak performance that your heads will provide. If you go big cam and big intake with a big carb everything is going to stop at the ports of those weak heads and all you will get is zero vaccum and the fuel separating out of the air-fuel mixture just to puddle in the floor of your big intake.
Your engine is an assembly of parts that either work together or don't work at all. You have to build to the weakest link - right now that is your heads. There is no way that you can use 6200 RPM the the cam, intake and carb are ready for with small stock heads, a low dollar cast crank, and 5/16" rod bolts and none of it balanced.
The B&M tranny should bolt up if the flywheels match up. If you have different flywheels then you will have to change starters. Do you know what torque converter stall the B&M is set up with? It will be a lower stall on your 5.0 than it was for the 351 but if it is too high you will get lousy milage and poor performance below the stall speed. A well built C4 will handle 600 HP without having roller bearing thrust washers in it and it takes less HP to run - You may need to fabricate a rear mount for the C6 too. You know the big name racers are all trying to fit the C4's behind their big blocks because of the weight savings and horsepower gains and you want to put a C6 behind a small block?

Grease monkey - I have been pretty tough on you here and I apologize for that. I don't intend to be mean - I just want you to think about your options and how to approach performance from a progressive point of view. - Tell you what, I am in the Puget Sound area of Washington State, and if you bring me a C4 core I will build it for you for two hundred dollars. It will take anything your 5.0 will take and all you have to do is promise to bring me three more C4 cores over the next year. You can keep the C6 and sell it to somebody who thinks they need it. I don't like 'em much so I have no use for it. If you sell it and your carb you should be able to finance your whole project.
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Old 08-07-2006, 06:23 AM   #4 (permalink)
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how hard can you turn a STOCK 5.0?

That "low dollar" cast crank will be plenty fine. Mine has seen 6500 several times, and I'm making 330HP or so. I would turn it to 7000, but I'm running a hydraulic cam.

You don't need a new crank to turn 6000RPM. Thats overkill. Rods and a balance, yes if you're going to make some power.
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Old 08-07-2006, 02:01 PM   #5 (permalink)
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how hard can you turn a STOCK 5.0?

The stock blocks, cranks, rods and pistons ends are fine to 7000+ if they are in good condition and the clearances are proper. The Springs, Rockers and Hydraulic lifters are the short falls and your stock heads will fall on their face. Keep in mind that is not for endurance applications just short bursts (Drag) and it will not last forever !!



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Old 08-07-2006, 02:49 PM   #6 (permalink)
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how hard can you turn a STOCK 5.0?

Just looked up the specs and the 302 uses a nodular cast iron crank from the factory not the high nodular crank that is good up to a piston speed of 3400 fps. In a 289 that is 7200 RPM in a 302 it is 6800?? or so.

If you feel like gambling with your car you can wind it up as high as you dare. If you look at what Ford recommended in the days of their high performance stuff they recommend the high nodular cast iron cranks for piston speeds of 3400fps.
I won't argue with what you are doing with your motor but I will stand by the Ford recommendations - they have tested it all.
If you aren't balancing your rotating mass you are looking for trouble. If you use cast pistons at 3400 fps they will fall apart. If you use the stock 5/16" rod bolts at those speeds they will stretch or worse.
I'm not new to this stuff - I built my first small block in 1970. I got 348 HP on the dyno at 6200 RPM.
Paul
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Old 08-07-2006, 02:58 PM   #7 (permalink)
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how hard can you turn a STOCK 5.0?

Yeah, but that was with heavy stock cast pistons and rods, and poor material strength. What year was this 302 crank recommendation from? Piston tech improved considerably from the 60's and 70's

Speed is important, but speed means nothing without mass. High tensile strength rod bolts, lighter than stock rods, light hypereutectic pistons, all make a difference with my motor. Yes, there will be no point in revving a stock 5.0L past 5500RPM with those heads, but with upgraded rod bolts (material, not size, you weaken the rod too much with bigger bolts) and a decent balance, you can easily turn 6000 RPM and more.

I don't think Ford used a forged crank in the 289 Hipo, and those things would rev, especially with the solid cam.

I am not questioning your experience at all. Having a disagreement doesn't mean I think poorly of you.
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Old 08-09-2006, 01:40 AM   #8 (permalink)
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how hard can you turn a STOCK 5.0?

Quote:
On 2006-08-07 14:58, thekingofazle wrote:
Yeah, but that was with heavy stock cast pistons and rods, and poor material strength. What year was this 302 crank recommendation from? Piston tech improved considerably from the 60's and 70's

Speed is important, but speed means nothing without mass. High tensile strength rod bolts, lighter than stock rods, light hypereutectic pistons, all make a difference with my motor. Yes, there will be no point in revving a stock 5.0L past 5500RPM with those heads, but with upgraded rod bolts (material, not size, you weaken the rod too much with bigger bolts) and a decent balance, you can easily turn 6000 RPM and more.

I don't think Ford used a forged crank in the 289 Hipo, and those things would rev, especially with the solid cam.

I am not questioning your experience at all. Having a disagreement doesn't mean I think poorly of you.
The recommendation for the pistons is from the '80s. Ford has had some problem with collapsed skirts - so much so the THEY recommend either the after market pistons or their forged units. It is RECOMMENDED for higher strength that the 5/16" rod bolts be replaced with the 11/32" (there isn't enough strength to go to 3/8&quot after-market ARP bolts.
Ford DIDN'T use a forged crank - I said a HIGH NODULAR CAST IRON CRANK. Cast iron lubricates MUCH better than steel and to a piston speed of 3400fps there is no need for more strength than the iron crank can give. (the high nodular cast iron is signifigantly stronger).
No offense taken and none meant from me either. There are bound to be differences - that's why different people win races. I have had some experience and a lot of advice from Ford and Ford's SVO team. I tend to do things with engines that no one else wants to try - so I spend a lot of time exchanging mail with the guys at SVO. I haven't got nearly the experience that they do. Ak Miller used to run the old Ford performance division before there was an SVO and he was the one who turned me on the rod bolts for the SBF - it's a shame that Ford has kept the small 5/16" rod bolts in that engine all these years. Remember that it started out as a 221cu" motor. The Boss 302 had beefier rods with 3/8" bolts and the CanAm 302 (tunnel port 302) used a huge rod compared to the stock one and it used 3/8" bolts too. You need strong rods but the forged rods from the factory are good to 7000 or there abouts when everything is balanced and they are polished and shot peened. If you want more RPM (as in racing) then you go with the high dollar stuff but we are talking about a street engine (I think).
Paul
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Old 08-12-2006, 12:54 PM   #9 (permalink)
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how hard can you turn a STOCK 5.0?

grease if u want to use the stock heads with that cam u'll need a tfs spring retainer keeper kit,at .512 your right at coil bind at ths factory stuff,the tfs kit has a modified exhaust retainer to get the spring install hieght up were the intake spring is,you'll have to get those valve rotators(retainers) off of those heads,going over 6200 rpm with the factory stock e7 head u just pissin in the wind,heads wont flow enough air to make any REAL power above that.BUT it will wind up.
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