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Old 04-27-2009, 06:17 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Fuel pump for efi conversion

I am working on an EFI conversion for my Fairlane. So far I am just gathering parts and info. I see that on alot of conversions, where the stock gas tank is used, that some people use a low pressure electric pump that feeds a small tank with either a high pressure inside or just outside it, inline to the engine. I was wondering if you could use a mechanical pump to feed the high pressure pump. My thoughts were to make a stainless tank that would be about 4" diameter and 8 to 10" long, similar to a cool can with the high pressure pump inside and mount it at the front beside the rad. That way I would have one less pump to worry about and the return line would not have to go to the back. The only major drawback that I can see is that there would be about 1/2 gallon of gas at the front, which in a crash would be a hazzard. What do ya think?
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Old 04-27-2009, 06:27 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Fuel pump for efi conversion

Seems a little like the hard way. I am going to be running a fuel pump in take from a Mitsubishi Evolution IX. It was free and flows ~190lph. Should be more then enough fuel @ 43psi rail pressure. I would think that you would be better off fab'ing an intake set up then a mechanical and then an electric.

Also, I don't think that the mechanical is going to put enough fuel into the tank you are building in order to keep the electric pump fed.
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Old 04-27-2009, 06:39 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Fuel pump for efi conversion

I have read that using the high pressure pump in a tank without baffles causes starvation at the pump when the fuel levels drop, especially during spirited driving. You might be right that the mechanical pump might not keep up. I was thinking that the same amount of fuel is being moved(used) either carb or efi. But then again the return line would go back into the small tank and if a mechanical pump would keep up to a carb at full throttle and the engine wouldn't use any more fuel being efi, it should keep up to the high pressure pump, I would think. It would be different if the return line went back to the main tank. I have seen where alot of guys have had problems with the electric low pressure pumps not living very long. Maybe I might just get a little creative with the stock tank and make a bit of a baffled sump for an in tank pump.
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Old 04-27-2009, 08:24 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Fuel pump for efi conversion

I have talked to a couple people who did this on old Fords. I was going to do it on mine and actually I think it may be easier and more reliable. There are people that make little tanks and pumps for this. Do some searching for fuel surge tanks. Here is an example.
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Old 04-28-2009, 11:42 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Fuel pump for efi conversion

This is exactly what i do in my old 67 mustang. A surge tank is feed by a low pressure high volume pump. The return line goes in the surge tank too. The surge tank overflow goes back in the gas tank and a bosch high pressure pump is feed by the surge tank.
Also i use two pickups in the gas tank for my low pressure pump. The surge tank is also custom made.



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Old 04-28-2009, 12:11 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Fuel pump for efi conversion

I converted a 1979 F250 to 5.8 EFI . I used a Bronco II fuel pump mounted on frame and added a return line to the sending unit. Was on the truck for 6 years.
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Old 04-28-2009, 01:18 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Fuel pump for efi conversion

Personally I would sump the tank, omit the stock sending units outlet by blocking it off (or buying an aftermarket one and permanently sealing it up), and mount an Aeromotive pump either in-tank or as close to it as possible... that vertical "cliff" just before the tank on the 64's would be a great spot.

This way you walk away with a clean and simple solution, avoid pump starvation issues, and have two readily available feed and return locations.


The child in me says to buy sheet aluminum and fab your own tank to do away with that old gas-casket for good.
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Old 04-28-2009, 07:31 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Fuel pump for efi conversion

I installed an 89 Mustang 5.0 w/AOD in my 67 Ranchero back in 1992. I have since put 150,000 miles on the car. I had very little information and help when I did this. I also installed power brakes w/ Granada disc at that time. My first fuel pump was a Mallory EFI pump and filter. Then another and then an Airtex. All were VERY noisy!! I then tried a NAPA inline (all pumps are external inline). The NAPA pump has been great, low priced easy availability and quiet. During this time I also found it necessary to install a small sump in the bottom of my tank, otherwise I sucked air at anything less that 1/2 tank. I used a hole saw to drill a 2" hole in the bottom of my tank where the pick up tube was. I purchased a small bread loaf pan at the hardware store baking section. Cut and flanged it and welded it to the bottom of the tank. Then added 2 to 3" of rubber hose into the sump. Other than some leakage this worked great. These tanks don't weld well, I then brazed the weld area, still leaked, covered with fiberglass which lasted for years. The final cure was having the tank ReNu coated.
When I did a Falcon for my son I decided to go in tank if possible. I was very concerned with noise due to my passed experiences and with the Falcon having a solid mounted tank. Through searching I became aware that the Mark VII used a rubber mounted in tank pump. So that is what I used. I cut out the mounting ring plus an inch or so out of the Mark tank. Added a 1.5" sump area on the bottom for the factory filter screen to fit into, this has worked well and is quiet. I was concerned with inducing pressurized fuel into the trunk area of the Falcon so I used all hard lines with compression fittings exiting the line forward into the axle hump area and factory filter next to the subframe connectors. I covered the pump outlet with an aluminum cover attached to the axle hump and side frame area. The two other edges I slit rubber fuel line and installed on their edges so they would not damage the top of the tank. Then all edge areas were sealed with high temp RTV. A 1/2 hole was drilled to allow any fuel to escape overboard if a leak did happen inside the enclosure. I then replaced the card board seat back area with a sheet of .032 aluminum using RTV on the cross braces and edges. Attaching this sheet with pop rivets.
I don't have any pictures of the Falcon at this time but will attach pictures of the Ranchero.

Hope this helps, Warren
Attached Thumbnails
Fuel pump for efi conversion-hpim0604.jpg   Fuel pump for efi conversion-hpim0606.jpg   Fuel pump for efi conversion-hpim0595.jpg  

Fuel pump for efi conversion-hpim0598.jpg   Fuel pump for efi conversion-hpim0592.jpg   Fuel pump for efi conversion-hpim0591.jpg  


Last edited by 44WJS; 02-08-2010 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 04-29-2009, 03:17 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Fuel pump for efi conversion

Thanks for the replys. I am concerned about noise from the pump. I would also like to keep it all out of the trunk area. There is a fair bit of room just in front of the tank but I am considering changing out the rear suspension with coil overs and either a panhard bar or watts link, so I would like to keep that area clear also. So a factory like intank setup would probably be best.
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Old 10-02-2010, 08:47 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Fuel pump for efi conversion

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Originally Posted by curtisjackson View Post
Converting an Electronic Fuel Injection from using a directly injected carb. Seems like your car needs a fuel efficiency makeover.
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Old 10-02-2010, 09:02 AM   #11 (permalink)
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The problem with using a surge tank is it would have to be vented to operate correctly all the time. You would want to vent it back to the main tank for safety. You would still need a return line.
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Old 10-04-2010, 12:37 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Fuel pump for efi conversion

Airtex E8228 - Electric Fuel Pump | O'Reilly Auto Parts

I've used that pump for 4 different EFI projects, flows 38gph at 43psi, enough for up to 400HP. If you run it isolated it's not too noisy, plus it's a lot cheaper than a lot of brand name fancy pumps that are way bigger than you need.

I would strongly advise against running a no-return system. It's hard on the fuel pump because the pump relies on fuel flow to keep it cool. I would also keep it out of the engine compartment. Heat can kill them, too. If they vapor lock, you can burn it out because the pump uses fuel as both coolant and lubricant.

Additionally, with a no-return system, it's very easy to vapor lock fuel in the lines - the fuel moves very little at idle and cruise (only at the rate of consumption) whereas if you have a return system, you keep constantly fresh cooler fuel at the injectors, which will greatly improve injector life as well That's also the reason you should put a return line at the end of the fuel rail, not before the injectors. As for the surge tank, that just depends on the kind of driving you do. Unlike a carbuerator, you don't have float bowls that will keep your car fueled if the pump cavitates.

If you don't run a low-volume pump, don't put your high-pressure pump too far away from the fuel tank - they don't "suck" fuel very well and will cavitate if it's more than a couple feet away. If you run a surge tank, it doesn't have to be huge, but it does have to be shaped properly so you always have fuel at your high-pressure pickup.

What kind of setup are you considering?
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Old 10-04-2010, 06:32 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Fuel pump for efi conversion

Quote:
Originally Posted by stvrrr View Post
...I see that on alot of conversions, where the stock gas tank is used, that some people use a low pressure electric pump that feeds a small tank with either a high pressure inside or just outside it, inline to the engine.
True. it is popular because you don't have to do any mods to the tank itself, or mess with fuel level senders, etc. The whole requirement on EFI is NO AIR BUBBLES. The surge tank and other accumulator systems provide that with any fuel tank type and in high-angle (off-road) or high-G maneuvering. Contrary to popular opinion, they are not cheesy get-by devices. They are commonly used in serious race cars for fuel feed reliability.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stvrrr View Post
I was wondering if you could use a mechanical pump to feed the high pressure pump.
Absolutely. BTDT. Doing another right now. Remember, the surge tank is fed volume fuel from the tank but with no pressure. Stock fuel pumps (like all pumps) increase their pumping capacity substantially when there is no pressure to make. You'll have plenty of volume.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stvrrr View Post
My thoughts were to make a stainless tank that would be about 4" diameter and 8 to 10" long, similar to a cool can with the high pressure pump inside and mount it at the front beside the rad.
You can buy what you describe for race cars at only $500+. Your design is fine, but a bit large. Half that size will feed 450hp for nearly a minute with no LP fuel replacement. I build mine at 1 quart maximum, as any more is a waste, and is good enough for a serious drag or road race car. Easier to tuck away, too. I like to put them at the front of the fender well where the Cougars had their big vacuum cannisters mounted. That puts it out of the engine compartment heat as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stvrrr View Post
That way I would have one less pump to worry about and the return line would not have to go to the back.
One less pump is right. You already have a reliable LP pump mounted to the engine - why not use it? I do. However, you must have a return line to the tank as the fuel will get really warm really fast. A typical high-performance HP pump makes more heat than a 100 watt light bulb and the fuel cools it. As already mentioned that will cause issues without a return. I have heard some that have used a small radiator with a returnless system, but I don't know how well that really worked. A return line also avoids any pressure in the surge tank.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stvrrr View Post
The only major drawback that I can see is that there would be about 1/2 gallon of gas at the front, which in a crash would be a hazard. What do ya think?
Well, consider in a carb you have fuel, and the lines will drain if they or the container are opened. Besides, the FAA approves surge tanks in aircraft engine compartments and even under the dash inside the cockpit as acceptable for safety. I have no concern and I've never heard of an issue with them (and many factory cars have them), especially with an electrical impact kill switch (standard Ford item), but your call on that.

David

Oh, look! A surge tank ready to be fabbed! LOL There are many items in many materials that are good for making surge and accumulator tanks. I prefer an external pump for fabbing simplicity. The pump is off Ford E and F series trucks/vans, comes stock in a convenient bracket and the thick sound insulator just below it. You can hardly hear it if you're trying, and they support 450hp stock. Next to that I put the important impact switch, available at your 'yard cheap or auto parts store for under $40 new. Finally the remote fuel filter shown (from many commercial vehicles) is modified into an air-separating surge tank, is cheap and easy to do. Lots of options!
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Old 04-27-2012, 12:05 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Fuel pump for efi conversion

Well you make a rather convincing argument for using that fuel set up. I think as my surge tank will be towards the front of the car the fuel pipes might even work out a little cheaper this way. Win win. Thanks
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:46 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Fuel pump for efi conversion

The filter/surge tank is an awesome idea. I'm so thankful for this forum.
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