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Old 02-02-2011, 06:09 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Granada Spindle "incorrect geometry' question

I have seen this stated quiet often, that the geometry of the Granada spindle is different from the sixties Fords that it replaces. Where exactly does this difference lie. Do all the Ford spindles that the Granada replace have the same configuration other than spindle diameter itself?
Also have read that the Granada spindle increases bump steer on older Fords and increases turning radius. What would be the reason for this?

CSRP reproduces and sells the Granada spindle, but with correct geometry for 60's Fords. ?????

Anyone know what the so called correct geometry is?
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Old 02-02-2011, 08:42 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Granada Spindle "incorrect geometry' question

As far as the turning radius, there are bump stops on the granada spindles that stop the steering from going beyond a certain point when turning a corner. When you install them on a older ford the stops are too big and need to be ground off till the turning radius is more like what your car came with. Not a big deal really, just takes a little time to get it right.
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Old 02-04-2011, 06:33 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Granada Spindle "incorrect geometry' question

David (psig) got any thoughts on this?
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Old 02-04-2011, 07:20 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Granada Spindle "incorrect geometry' question

LOL - my thoughts are that the issue gets ugly before 1968 models, and even uglier pre-'66. There is no doubt the geometry is different between the years, manual/power, and I6/V8. Several different combinations of geometries and parts, and why there is so much confusion about it. The Grenade spindles are identical to drum spindle geometries in the later years, but (relatively) further inboard for earlier years and often different tie rod intersect height. This is where the high bump (and larger turn radius) comes from in I6 cars, but less in V8's. Generally (but not always) the BS in the V8 suspensions is correctable with a BS kit, at least to street driver levels, and no worse than the built-in factory BS. My suggestion is to call somebody like CSRP to get the low-down on your particular setup with whatever parts it's currently using. They can tell you what geometry fix you may need for your combo for best results.

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Old 02-04-2011, 09:32 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Granada Spindle "incorrect geometry' question

I don't have the Granada spindles, the ones on the Falcon are from a '73 disk brake Mustang. I guess I am trying to compare apples to grapes and to oranges and get back to the apples. I do encounter some bump steer, how much is hard to tell, what is the cause is also difficult to pin point. I didn't drive the car before I switched the spindles so all I have to compare to is memories of a previous 64 Falcon (early seventies) which at best was a little sloppy. Both being V8 equipped cars.

The reason I referenced the Granada spindles was the part about corrected geometry and if one size fits all. 'All' being the early spindles they replace. Actually, I need to determine the differences , if any, of the 60's 70's V8 spindles other than the shaft size increased in 70. What I have found in comparing 64 to 73 is spindle height ball joint to ball joint is the same. They use the same upper Ball joint and lower ball joint fits, tie rod ends will interchange. What I don't know is the difference in lower control arm, and the trailing arm.
I will dig into this deeper by removing the spindle from the car and comparing it to a 64. I was hoping for an easy way out.
Thanks for your help just the same.
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Old 02-04-2011, 10:08 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Granada Spindle "incorrect geometry' question

Bump steer is caused by the suspension and steering swinging through different arcs.

This causes the steering linkage to pull in or out as it goes through its travel.

If the tie rod has a shorter arc of travel than the control arms of the suspension, then it pulls in as the suspension moves.
If the tie rod has a longer arc of travel than the control arms of the suspension, then it pushes outward as the suspension moves.

I compared a granada to a V8 1965-66 mustang drum brake spindle at one time, and there was a significant difference. It's been a while, but I believe the granada unit had a shorter arm, and was either higher or lower than the mustang unit.

The granada does have more bumpsteer than the stock mustang spindle.
However, I've had them on my car for over 20 years without issue... as have many others. They offered disk brakes, which from a safety standpoint, WAY overruled the crappy drum brakes on the car.

Good Luck!
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Last edited by n2omike; 02-04-2011 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 02-04-2011, 10:41 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Granada Spindle "incorrect geometry' question

The Granada spindles have been on my Falcon since 1988. The bump steer isn't any worse than with the stock spindles. Like N2OMike said the benefits of disc brakes far out weigh the minor effect of any added bump steer.
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Old 02-04-2011, 03:31 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Granada Spindle "incorrect geometry' question

Quote:
Originally Posted by retyler View Post
I don't have the Granada spindles, the ones on the Falcon are from a '73 disk brake Mustang. I guess I am trying to compare apples to grapes and to oranges and get back to the apples. I do encounter some bump steer, how much is hard to tell, what is the cause is also difficult to pin point. ...
Well, if you have original-style V8 steering parts, and post-'71 spindles, you should be in the best territory. Except for the I6 suspension, the geometries are not that far off, especially if your ride height is lower than stock, or you have done A-arm drops. If this is all true, you should be able to zero the setup closer to 'ideal' than how it came from the factory by lowering the tie rod outboard ends. I would suggest a simple drop system, either aftermarket kit or DIY with inexpensive race parts selected for the purpose. I think I posted my DIY BS setup before, but if not, I'll grab a pic of it when I get home.

David
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Old 02-04-2011, 05:51 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Granada Spindle "incorrect geometry' question

Thanks David, that is pretty much what I am looking for as far as the spindles go. Trying to eliminate some things. I did the UCA drop about five years ago along with 620 lowering springs. Got a lot of tire rub so I went back to stock height and noticed a degradation in the way the car drove. I planned to cut the springs until I find a happy medium. The Unisteer R&P includes the dropped tie rods. (try explaining them to an alignment person) so the rods and LCA are pretty much parallel with each other as far as I can tell. No science here. Toe in is at 1/8 to 1/4. Alignment guy checked the tires and found them to be OK.

As far as bump steer, the car drives and handles fairly well on the back country roads, dips and uneven pavement under say 65mph. Could be better. However, I was out on one of the more open roads one day and fell into some truck groves. You know that feeling you get when you slip on a wet floor or an icy parking lot? A little squirrelly to say the least, much worst than any other vehicle I drive on the same roads. That's where my biggest concern is at the moment and I'm pretty much shooting in the dark trying to find the solution.
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Old 02-04-2011, 06:51 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Granada Spindle "incorrect geometry' question

Cool, and if you can get some multi-angle pics (especially even in height) or a drawing of angles and lengths, that would help. But, let me say up-front that you (and everybody else) will always have bump-steer somewhere in the suspension travel. The trick is to have the least BS where you use the travel the most, or where it is critical for handling. This is why sometimes you'll see drag cars that show horrible toe at launch with full suspension drop, but they handle nicely both at speed and when nosing from braking at speed. The BS is where it affects the least.

Offhand, I'm assuming your setup in my mind, and am guessing that you'll need to drop your rod ends about 3/8" or so. That's a guess. But the reason isn't parallel rods/arms, but rather the camber change affecting the spindle directly. Note when the spindle rises or falls, the camber changes, and this affects the position and angle of the tie rod end location, independent of the rod/arm relationship and based on upper/lower arms and spindle ball joint locations. This all assumes you have zero play in your steering parts from rod end to rod end. Making any sense?

David
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Old 02-10-2011, 08:52 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Granada Spindle "incorrect geometry' question

I just put a set of CSRP Granada spindles on my '65 Mustang. The steering arms, compared to the original Mustang spindle arms, were considerably different than the stock Granada spindle arms.

It was kind of hard to get a definitive picture of the whole difference but they were noticeably longer and CSRP states that they also have a different height and longitudinal placement by about 3/8's inch.

Everything related to the spindle pin and UCA/LCA mount points relationship were identical to the Mustang.

I was actually changing out Granada Spindles that I had installed back in '82. I did not have noticable bumpsteer but I was having the Shelby Drop done and it was my understanding that bumpsteer was more liable to show up at that point.

Last edited by Boomyal; 02-10-2011 at 08:59 AM.
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Old 02-10-2011, 12:01 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Granada Spindle "incorrect geometry' question

The Shelby drop doesn't change the relationship between the mounting points and rod pivots enough to cause problems. (the Shelby Mustangs were not known for bump steer problems) Putting on a Granada spindle might change the location of the pivots enough to cause problems but if you didn't have bump steer before then you are not likely to experience them after the drop.
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Old 02-10-2011, 03:11 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Granada Spindle "incorrect geometry' question

True enough. If anything, the situation is better, as the relative relationships vary less with the drop. Look at it this way - if we view the lower ball joint as a neutral pivot point - the spindle pivots around the lower ball joint, forced by the upper. On a stock suspension, positive (outward) camber change causes a relative inward rotation of the steering arm towards the tie rod end. The dropped A-arm changes geometry for less positive camber change, and therefore less relative inward rotation of the steering arm. The effect changes depending on what parts you may have changed or altered.

This is all great, but unless you plot your bump steer and choose the best correction at your ride height and travel before your alignment, you may still have noticeable bump steer under certain conditions. Many bump steer correction kits come pre-set for a general 'best compromise' which may or may not be best for your particular setup, ride height, or driving application.

David
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Old 02-10-2011, 03:48 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Granada Spindle "incorrect geometry' question

control arms locations for roll center depends on the type of racing , drag or circle , then you got street . you can shoot for zero toe/camber or zero toe with camber gain . whatever you need
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Old 02-10-2011, 03:52 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Granada Spindle "incorrect geometry' question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomyal View Post
I just put a set of CSRP Granada spindles on my '65 Mustang. The steering arms, compared to the original Mustang spindle arms, were considerably different than the stock Granada spindle arms.

It was kind of hard to get a definitive picture of the whole difference but they were noticeably longer and CSRP states that they also have a different height and longitudinal placement by about 3/8's inch.

Everything related to the spindle pin and UCA/LCA mount points relationship were identical to the Mustang.

I was actually changing out Granada Spindles that I had installed back in '82. I did not have noticable bumpsteer but I was having the Shelby Drop done and it was my understanding that bumpsteer was more liable to show up at that point.
Boomyal found this place I see . Dan
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