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Old 12-04-2009, 06:20 PM   #1 (permalink)
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c4 or c6

I bought a c4 from someone last week wanting to have it built for a 90 mustang with a 408 with 525 hp and 500 hp. Not sure which c4 I have, but I took it by the local trans shop. I told them what I intended to use it for, which would be strip time. Eventually adding some 150 shot to it. The guy told me a was crazy for using the c4 and should use a c6 instead. Last month there was a 88 with 418 and c4 running low 10s. I have heard of a lot of people using the c4 but not many that use the c6. Will the c4, with proper parts hold up to 600 or so hp? Should I use a c4 or go with c6?

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Old 12-04-2009, 06:28 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: c4 or c6

A C4 with proper parts can take much more than 600 hp. With proper parts they are used behind 1000+ hp engines. Go check the 429/460 Ford forums. Using a C4 instead of a C6 is worth approximatley 2 tenths in the 1/4, too.

It's just more expensive to build a C4 to the same power level as a C6.

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Old 12-04-2009, 07:07 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: c4 or c6

what is the main reason for people not using the c6 over the c4?

Is there a write up that would get me going in the right direction?

How can I identify what c4 I have?

Thanks
pt
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Old 12-04-2009, 07:30 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: c4 or c6

A C4 is approximately 50 pounds lighter than a C6. A C4 can be about 2 tenths quicker than a C6 in the 1/4 mile. A C6 is for trucks. A C4 is for race cars.

If your trans shop is telling you that the C4 won't work, then don't use them for the build. It is evident that they don't know how to build one correctly to handle power.

I would recommend broaderperformance.com for either the build of for buying parts for your build. They can supply you with all the high performance parts and good tech support.

You can get started by reading the "monster thread" at the top of the C4 page on this site. Lot's of good info and mods to make a C4 work.
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Old 12-04-2009, 08:06 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: c4 or c6

it takes a special "shop" to build a C4 that will hold up to that kind of punishment. Most just tell you to go with a C6 because it's by design a stronger unit. Heavier and power hungry, but stronger in it's basic stock design.

C4 is about .2 and 2-3 mph faster than a C6...and easier to work on, IMO. They don't seem to be as finicky in building them for whatever reason.

Oh...and no I've not ever built a C4 for that much power. About 550 HP is all I've ever put through one, and even then it was a blueprinted "stock" internal unit with a little more line pressure and GOOD clutch plates & steel plates. Inferior parts will reward you with lots of busted and burned up stuff.

I went to a powerglide and never went back. Better than a C4 IMO for lots of power in a light car--especially for a bracket car.
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Old 12-04-2009, 11:08 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: c4 or c6

Running an automatic with nitrous is really hard on the internal parts. If you are running 500 HP it is easy to make a nearly stock C4 live well with it. Add a 150 shot to it and instead of a C4 that needs to take 650 HP you have a need for a C4 that will need to be built to take 800 hp.
WHY?
Well you have an engine turning 6500 RPM putting 500 hp through your C4 and then you hit it with a sledge hammer of 150 HP! An instantaneous 150 additional HP - that C4 need to absorb that and then transmit it to the rear wheels.
It can be done - and I have done it many times.You will need some very special parts to get there.
1. Hardened and cryo treated input shaft.
2. Fully welded or sleeved forward clutch drum cryo treated.
3. billet planet carriers and four pinion planets.
4. High strength stator support and hardened pump gears.
5. Cryo treated shafts and drums.
6. Full manual valve body.
7. Anti-balloning converter.
8. Steel plate main case and bell cover.
9. 2 added clutches in each drum - Kevlar.
10. Kevlar front band
11. High stall converter
12. at least 35000 GVW cooler - maybe two.
use Mercon V because you will be running all Kevlar and Carbon friction materials.
Plan on spending a lot of money - $3500 - $5000 depending on what parts you end up using. This is a C4 that will hold up to the abuse for several - or more - seasons. Refreshing the transmission will be cheap in comparison to the initial cost probably $250 - $400.

Call Jay at Broader Performance and see if he will build you one - I know he does the cryo treating.. I don't know if he has the Australian made 4 pinion billet planetaries or not but talk to him.
Broader Performance Home Page
Tell him Paul from Seattle sent you - he is the guy I would buy my transmissions from if I didn't build my own.
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Old 12-15-2009, 08:05 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: c4 or c6

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS1950 View Post
Running an automatic with nitrous is really hard on the internal parts. If you are running 500 HP it is easy to make a nearly stock C4 live well with it. Add a 150 shot to it and instead of a C4 that needs to take 650 HP you have a need for a C4 that will need to be built to take 800 hp.
WHY?
Well you have an engine turning 6500 RPM putting 500 hp through your C4 and then you hit it with a sledge hammer of 150 HP! An instantaneous 150 additional HP - that C4 need to absorb that and then transmit it to the rear wheels.
It can be done - and I have done it many times.You will need some very special parts to get there.
1. Hardened and cryo treated input shaft.
2. Fully welded or sleeved forward clutch drum cryo treated.
3. billet planet carriers and four pinion planets.
4. High strength stator support and hardened pump gears.
5. Cryo treated shafts and drums.
6. Full manual valve body.
7. Anti-balloning converter.
8. Steel plate main case and bell cover.
9. 2 added clutches in each drum - Kevlar.
10. Kevlar front band
11. High stall converter
12. at least 35000 GVW cooler - maybe two.
use Mercon V because you will be running all Kevlar and Carbon friction materials.
Plan on spending a lot of money - $3500 - $5000 depending on what parts you end up using. This is a C4 that will hold up to the abuse for several - or more - seasons. Refreshing the transmission will be cheap in comparison to the initial cost probably $250 - $400.

Call Jay at Broader Performance and see if he will build you one - I know he does the cryo treating.. I don't know if he has the Australian made 4 pinion billet planetaries or not but talk to him.
Broader Performance Home Page
Tell him Paul from Seattle sent you - he is the guy I would buy my transmissions from if I didn't build my own.
I run Ford type F Tranny fluid with the biggest Cooler B&M makes. My C4 has all Kevlar and Carbon friction parts. Will the Ford Type F damage my trans. The trans rarely gets over 160 degrees, even in 100 degree weather. Hottest I've ever seen it was maybe 180 idling for a while in heavy traffic and 96 degree weather.

I had the C4 rebuilt once cuz the first guy(dumb**** liar) put a stock drum in it instead of steel billet drum, and stock drum exploded after 5000 miles. It sounded like a grenade going off under my car. My new tranny tech took it apart and said everything looked excellent except the drum, which fractured into a bunch of pieces.
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Old 12-15-2009, 08:09 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: c4 or c6

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS1950 View Post
Running an automatic with nitrous is really hard on the internal parts. If you are running 500 HP it is easy to make a nearly stock C4 live well with it. Add a 150 shot to it and instead of a C4 that needs to take 650 HP you have a need for a C4 that will need to be built to take 800 hp.
WHY?
Well you have an engine turning 6500 RPM putting 500 hp through your C4 and then you hit it with a sledge hammer of 150 HP! An instantaneous 150 additional HP - that C4 need to absorb that and then transmit it to the rear wheels.
It can be done - and I have done it many times.You will need some very special parts to get there.
1. Hardened and cryo treated input shaft.
2. Fully welded or sleeved forward clutch drum cryo treated.
3. billet planet carriers and four pinion planets.
4. High strength stator support and hardened pump gears.
5. Cryo treated shafts and drums.
6. Full manual valve body.
7. Anti-balloning converter.
8. Steel plate main case and bell cover.
9. 2 added clutches in each drum - Kevlar.
10. Kevlar front band
11. High stall converter
12. at least 35000 GVW cooler - maybe two.
use Mercon V because you will be running all Kevlar and Carbon friction materials.
Plan on spending a lot of money - $3500 - $5000 depending on what parts you end up using. This is a C4 that will hold up to the abuse for several - or more - seasons. Refreshing the transmission will be cheap in comparison to the initial cost probably $250 - $400.

Call Jay at Broader Performance and see if he will build you one - I know he does the cryo treating.. I don't know if he has the Australian made 4 pinion billet planetaries or not but talk to him.
Broader Performance Home Page
Tell him Paul from Seattle sent you - he is the guy I would buy my transmissions from if I didn't build my own.
Don't ever use a stock drum in a c4. My car puts out 550hp and creamed my stock drum after about 4-5000 miles on it.
R u saying a nearly stock c4 will take 500hp, i don't believe that. What do u think a nearly stock c4 is.
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Old 12-16-2009, 02:51 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: c4 or c6

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Originally Posted by Goneinsixty View Post
Don't ever use a stock drum in a c4. My car puts out 550hp and creamed my stock drum after about 4-5000 miles on it.
R u saying a nearly stock c4 will take 500hp, i don't believe that. What do u think a nearly stock c4 is.
My brother and I have been racing C-4's for a long time and have never exploded a drum.
His 2700 lb Falcon has gone 9.3's, my 3100 lb Fairmont went 10.3's and my 2700 Lb T-Bird has gone 9.92. No nitrous though.
All stock C-4 hard parts, rollerized geartrain in them and transbrake valve bodies. The rest is as Ford built it.
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Old 12-16-2009, 12:25 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: c4 or c6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goneinsixty View Post
I run Ford type F Tranny fluid with the biggest Cooler B&M makes. My C4 has all Kevlar and Carbon friction parts. Will the Ford Type F damage my trans. The trans rarely gets over 160 degrees, even in 100 degree weather. Hottest I've ever seen it was maybe 180 idling for a while in heavy traffic and 96 degree weather.

I had the C4 rebuilt once cuz the first guy(dumb**** liar) put a stock drum in it instead of steel billet drum, and stock drum exploded after 5000 miles. It sounded like a grenade going off under my car. My new tranny tech took it apart and said everything looked excellent except the drum, which fractured into a bunch of pieces.
As long as it stays cool running type "F" is fine. Kevlar frictions tend to slip and never completely lock-up (slip is about 50 rpm) so they generate a lot of heat. I have built C4s for over 35 years and the stock drum is usually good for 550 hp if the center is brazed or welded. The sleeving seems as strong as the brazing (which actually holds up better than most welded drums I have seen) cryo treatment above 550 hp or with nitrous at any level is a requirement as far as I am concerned.
Basically with added clutches, and a brazed drum and the regular mods to oiling and cooling the C4 is good to 550 HP so long as you can keep it cool.
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Old 12-16-2009, 08:02 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: c4 or c6

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Originally Posted by PaulS1950 View Post
As long as it stays cool running type "F" is fine. Kevlar frictions tend to slip and never completely lock-up (slip is about 50 rpm) so they generate a lot of heat. I have built C4s for over 35 years and the stock drum is usually good for 550 hp if the center is brazed or welded. The sleeving seems as strong as the brazing (which actually holds up better than most welded drums I have seen) cryo treatment above 550 hp or with nitrous at any level is a requirement as far as I am concerned.
Basically with added clutches, and a brazed drum and the regular mods to oiling and cooling the C4 is good to 550 HP so long as you can keep it cool.

So why do u think my stock drum obliterated. the trans runs very cool and fluid level was good. The new steel billet drum cost $500.00 and was pressed in by the Tranny tech. Also proper Auto tranny temp should never exceed 210 degrees, right.
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Old 12-16-2009, 10:44 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: c4 or c6

I'll bet your drum was dropped and hit it's edge on a concrete floor or something fell on it, and the micro cracks began to spread. That is not a 'normal' high-HP failure mode. I don't know why yours would 'grenade' and I've never seen one that failed the way your describing, and although I'm just spouting off a random theory, I'll stick to it until someone throws a better one out there.
Quote:
Don't ever use a stock drum in a c4. ... R u saying a nearly stock c4 will take 500hp, i don't believe that. What do u think a nearly stock c4 is.
You're funny. You should believe it, because it's true, and proven by many. What is nearly stock? A full stock rebuild on a good V8 core, with high quality clutches (and an extra or two of them), a proper shift-improvement kit or mods, a couple of minor mods for durability, and attention to detail. Nearly stock. If you want to know more, read the sticky threads at the top of this forum section. All the answers are there.

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Old 12-17-2009, 01:27 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: c4 or c6

So what billet drum are you using? Just curious..
I have run 647 Nitrous RWHP through one of my welded drums
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:15 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: c4 or c6

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The new steel billet drum cost $500.00 and was pressed in by the Tranny tech.
What drum are you talking about? Pressed in where?

I run sleeved drums which I do myself. They hold up fine. I just finished one for a 700hp big block. That will be the highest HP one that I've done yet. We will see how she holds up next spring.
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Old 12-17-2009, 08:16 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: c4 or c6

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What drum are you talking about? Pressed in where?

I run sleeved drums which I do myself. They hold up fine. I just finished one for a 700hp big block. That will be the highest HP one that I've done yet. We will see how she holds up next spring.

Can't remember exactly. The tech said it was a $500 steel billet drum, and it was pressed on. I'm no expert with c4 trans, but that's what he told me. He said the previous drum was stock and exploded, don't know why. Maybe it was sleeved like u said, but i thought he told me it was pressed in not screwed. Don't remember, sorry.
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