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Old 06-03-2008, 08:21 PM   #1 (permalink)
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high RPM timing retard

I know every motor will be somewhat different but what is the "rule of thumb" for pulling out timing at high RPM? (at what Rpm and how much) I have a digital 6 plus box that has a 12volt activated timing retard, is there a RPM activated switch that you use for this?
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Old 06-03-2008, 09:17 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: high RPM timing retard

I hear about guys doing this all the time, but I wonder WHY. On the dyno, the engine will always make the most HP with more timing. Usually, it will pickup a few lbs of torque when you retard it two degrees from best HP setting. I have guys tell me their car runs faster when they do it, but that means it was too far advanced all aloong.

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Old 06-04-2008, 09:13 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: high RPM timing retard

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Originally Posted by BIGJOE View Post
I hear about guys doing this all the time, but I wonder WHY. On the dyno, the engine will always make the most HP with more timing. Usually, it will pickup a few lbs of torque when you retard it two degrees from best HP setting. I have guys tell me their car runs faster when they do it, but that means it was too far advanced all aloong.

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Joe,

On most race engines it there an around about timing figure that is common?

What would your guess be on a 408 cleveland, A3 heads 13.5 carbed methanol

Thanks
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Old 06-04-2008, 02:41 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: high RPM timing retard

When it comes to alcohol, I hasve seen them want less timing than gas. I would start at 32 then try 34. If it did not like going up to 34, go back to 30. You cannot hurt it with the alcohol, but there might not be much differance with the total timing thing.

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Old 06-04-2008, 02:51 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: high RPM timing retard

My experience goes with Joe's - if you take timing out and it picks up, you had too much to start with. Unless you have a really tight converter or drive a lot on the street, the "curve" on a drag car doesn't mean much. Most race converters will flash past the curve anyway. Set the timing for best MPH, just like jetting, then fix any curve you need to fall into line with the max setting.

I suppose you could use a micro switch set to close at WOT - run advanced timing when you're putting around, then have the ignition take out X to set your best performance limit when you nail the throttle.
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Old 06-05-2008, 06:39 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: high RPM timing retard

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGJOE View Post
When it comes to alcohol, I hasve seen them want less timing than gas. I would start at 32 then try 34. If it did not like going up to 34, go back to 30. You cannot hurt it with the alcohol, but there might not be much differance with the total timing thing.

JOE SHERMAN RACING ENGINES
I have ran the timing from 28 to 36 deg. It clearly runs better, or quicker shall I say with the 36 deg. I have not gone any higher. I was once told with the quenched style head to run less timing because it did not need it.
It is clearly quicker in the 60' with the 36 timing which makes it quicker in the 1/8. As far a MPH is concerned, I'm not sure at this time, because I cannot get a feel for the consistend MPH I guess because of the air temp change.

Best MPH is almost 118 even, best ET so far has been 5.79 on several passes but only about 117.5 or so MPH. The best 60' has been 1.24 which was with the 36 deg timing and running the 5.79
I feel it will ET better with more timing because it will pick up the 60' but I don't want to get into detonation?

Thanks for the reply, Edwin
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Old 06-07-2008, 09:26 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: high RPM timing retard

I've known Super Stock racers that have tried this, but never personally done it. Thier cars always ran the class index times, so it must have worked for them.
They were running 40 degrees in 1st and 2nd gear then had a retard switch on the shifter so when you went into high gear it would retard the engine to 36 degrees. Never seen it on a dyno but there are some big name people that run timing timers on some serious cars.

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Old 06-07-2008, 11:01 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: high RPM timing retard

From what I have read you do not "gain HP" by retarding it on the big end. but retarding it lets the motor turn easier at the big end which I guess lets the motor get to it peak power before you run out of track. I have heard plenty of cars at the track go from a steady pull to the motor turning much easier almost like the tranny slipping but its not. Most of these cars are 11sec or faster and are turning seriouse R's. Anyways I not an expert I'm just tryin to squeze a little more out of my car and I have the retard option on my box. But then agian maybe I'm the retard LOL!!!!!
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Old 06-07-2008, 02:44 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: high RPM timing retard

I always heard there was something to it, BUT, my own dyno testing tells me differant. Here is one thing that may be what is happening. You actually set the timing too far advanced for the lower gears where you do not spend any length of time, but when you get it in high gear for the big long pull, you cannot use the extra advance to any advantage, so you drop it back to where it is supposed to be anyhow. ( just my thoughts ) MAYBE ??? This is another area where people get mixed up between serious race stuff and milderr performance engines. They are not the same.

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Old 06-18-2008, 08:50 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: high RPM timing retard

I run methanol @ 14.5:1 C/R with high off the line then pull 4.9* of timing out at 4800 rpm's in low gear. Then when the car shifts it will return to 38* of timing untill the engine reaches 5000 rpm's then it will pull out 6* of timing. While I agree that the engine is likley to have too much timing from the get go, the high timing helps the car get out of the hole in my case for very consistent reaction times. I also run a Digital 7 programmable ignition box.
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