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Old 07-19-2005, 11:07 PM   #1 (permalink)
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351M/400ci Dyno results

I have a 1976 Ford Gran Torino (Actual a Starsky and Hutch replica complete with siren and flashing lights). I am having its restoration process completed and decided to also let them do something with the engine.

From my limited memory ->flattop pistons 9.5:1, Comp cam 270H, Holly 600, Elelbrock 351 Performer intake. Balanced, blue printed (not sure what that means) Once finished I will get details on exactly what was done.

Anyway saw the engine dynoed today; Really cool!


RPM HP Torque
2500 198.8 414.8
2600 208.6 421.7
2700 220.2 428.4
2800 231.2 433.9
2900 241.6 437.7
3000 251.7 440.5
3100 261.9 443.8
3200 271.6 445.6
3300 279.2 444.0
3400 286.6 442.0
3500 294.5 442.4
3600 303.6 441.5
3700 309.6 439.5
3800 317.7 439.4
3900 326.4 439.7
4000 333.0 437.2
4100 333.7 427.5
4200 336.3 420.8
4300 341.9 417.6
4400 345.9 413.0
4500 349.1 407.0
4600 347.8 397.1
4700 347.5 389.1
4800 345.1 377.3
4900 345.0 370.1
5000 343.0 361.3
5100 340.6 350.5
5200 332.1 344.9





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: grenouille on 7/21/05 12:43am ]</font>
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Old 07-19-2005, 11:09 PM   #2 (permalink)
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351M/400ci Dyno results

That is a sweet torque curve! Get ready to replace tires often.
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Old 07-23-2005, 11:32 PM   #3 (permalink)
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351M/400ci Dyno results

Very impressive!!!

Nice to see good numbers from the poor abused M-Block engines. That should get you awesome street performance, and some pretty good mileage to boot. Nice build!
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Old 07-24-2005, 06:54 PM   #4 (permalink)
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351M/400ci Dyno results

The engine shop was a bit disappointed with me though. The ship mentioned they had done up hundreds and hundreds of the M-blocks in the 80’s and early 90’s and they could safely hit 500-600hp and 500-600+ torque with the engine.

I wanted a nice street drivable car, not something to take to the strip, so I said it must have a decent idle and be reliable if I am driving my family around. I won’t mind the noise from the heads and dual exhaust, that just gives it character.

It will be weeks before they finish the rest of the restoration so I am still worried the cam might cause the idle to be a bit too rough? Anyone know about this?

The cam is comp 270H (270, 224, .519, 110). I don’t understand exactly what that means, particularly the 224 at .050. I also remember this was their second choice cam – their first choice was unavailable. It was comp XE262H (262/270, 218/224, .513/.520 ,110) They said I would not notice very much difference between the two cams. Also not sure what numbers have the biggest impact on idle, or what is smooth or not.

Thanks for any input;


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Old 07-24-2005, 11:46 PM   #5 (permalink)
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351M/400ci Dyno results

Quote:
The engine shop was a bit disappointed with me though. The ship mentioned they had done up hundreds and hundreds of the M-blocks in the 80’s and early 90’s and they could safely hit 500-600hp and 500-600+ torque with the engine.

I wanted a nice street drivable car, not something to take to the strip, so I said it must have a decent idle and be reliable if I am driving my family around. I won’t mind the noise from the heads and dual exhaust, that just gives it character.

It will be weeks before they finish the rest of the restoration so I am still worried the cam might cause the idle to be a bit too rough? Anyone know about this?

The cam is comp 270H (270, 224, .519, 110). I don’t understand exactly what that means, particularly the 224 at .050. I also remember this was their second choice cam – their first choice was unavailable. It was comp XE262H (262/270, 218/224, .513/.520 ,110) They said I would not notice very much difference between the two cams. Also not sure what numbers have the biggest impact on idle, or what is smooth or not.

Thanks for any input
Well the first two refer to duration.
And the .519 refers to valve lift

It has 270, degrees intake duration 224,degrees exhaust duration
And it has .519 inch intake valve lift and .519 inch exhaust valve lift

And the 110 refers to centerline

Explanation

DURATION
Duration refers to how long the valve is opened to relation to crankshaft rotation. This open valve time period is expressed in degrees of crankshaft so. A cam specification 224 degrees duration simply means the cam holds the valve open for
22.4 degrees of crankshaft rotation

More duration is helpful for high RPM. And low duration is better for low RPM.

With high duration The extra degrees of open valve time at high RPM gives the air flow a little more time to get in/out of the cylinder in spite of the pistons stroke. However at low RPM more duration can cause less power because the valves well be open at the wrong time in relation to the Piston’s stroke. Because the engine is running slower “the crank shaft is running slower” is making the valves stay open longer causing the combustion chamber to fill up with to much gas “ causing miss combustion” and then the exhaust valves are open to long causing fumes and air to escape the cylinder “causing miss combustion” at low RPM.

Low duration does just the opposite at low rpm it is perfect for making horse power and torque but at high RPM the valves are not open long/wide enough causing it to suffocate the cylinders at high RPM



LIFT
Valve Lift refers to how Wide the valve is open
If valves are not open wide enough, they will cause the restriction for the air trying to enter/escape the cylinders. However opening the valve past a certain point well not increase the flow to/from the cylinders as the heads can only flow so much

Valve lift is measured in thousandths of an inch and you got .519 “just over half an inch”


Separation
Separation refers to the spacing between the intake lobe and the exhaust lobe on the cam shaft this separation is expressed in degrees on the camshaft “Not the crankshaft” so a 110 lobe separation means the intake and exhaust lobes are 110 degrees apart from each other on the camshaft
Separation just like center line is another way to tie the duration to the crankshafts rotation and end with valve events this spec is a little more complication though, because it is in the cam shaft degrees and the crankshaft rotates two degrees for each one degree of cam rotation also if the cam has been either advanced or retarded, the valves events well be different.


But with the right cams it is impossible to make more horse power at low rpm then at high rpm “with the right camshaft” but at higher rpm you start to lose torque "you have to give to take"

Your engine should run pretty smooth with that camshaft
Me personally I like the rough sound of a bigger camshaft

Richard

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Old 07-25-2005, 12:24 AM   #6 (permalink)
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351M/400ci Dyno results

The shop is either talking about a really exotic 500-600HP motor or they are full of crap.

The heads need to flow 320+CFM to get 600HP. A 2V head won't even come close. Your motor could make a solid 450HP with a bigger cam and carb and good heads. That intake will limit the upper RPM.

Despite the shops' talk your motor will be a blast on the street.
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Old 07-25-2005, 01:07 AM   #7 (permalink)
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351M/400ci Dyno results

that is untrue carroll shelby built a 900 hp 289 with stock 289 hipo heads but it was dual supercharged it all just depends and you know it :p

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Old 07-25-2005, 08:09 AM   #8 (permalink)
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351M/400ci Dyno results

Quote:
On 2005-07-25 01:07, ixtlan wrote:
that is untrue carroll shelby built a 900 hp 289 with stock 289 hipo heads but it was dual supercharged it all just depends and you know it :p
You should atleast compare apples with apples.
Try it without forced induction and see how you end up.
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Old 07-25-2005, 09:38 AM   #9 (permalink)
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351M/400ci Dyno results

Hi Richard;

Thanks for taking the time to explain to me, that’s why I love this forum. People are very friendly and helpful compared to other forms I have seen.

Still a bit confused on 270/270, 224/224 @ .050” I get the first number is intake, second is exhaust, so the 270 is total duration, while the 224 is duration (22.4 degrees of camshaft rotation) when it is open 0.050 or more?

Sorry if I am asking obvious questions - this is all new to me.
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Old 07-25-2005, 10:02 AM   #10 (permalink)
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351M/400ci Dyno results

Hi Allenman85;

They may have been bragging a bit, or maybe not? I am new to all this so I can’t say for sure what’s real.

The restoration company I am using is Legendary Motor Cars, they outsource their engine work to Active Racing Engines. Active are well know, they do the engines for at least 2 TV shows on the Speed channel, race engines for many professional drivers, race boat engines etc. They are huge, turning out about 20-30 motors a month. They work mostly on consignment from several companies.

Several engines before mine was a Ferrari engine, and the engine right before mine was a 427?, producing 700hp and something. Does that sound possible?

Active gave me a tour and I was impressed, they had tons of high Tec, and low Tec equipment, one I remember they explained had something to do which testing of air flow before engine assembly – must admit most of what they told me was way over my head.

These guys aren’t cheap, so I would assume that for my 351M/400 to put out 500+hp they would do what ever needed. Most people dealing with Legendry/Active don’t worry too much on the cost side as long as they are happy with the results.

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Old 07-25-2005, 12:57 PM   #11 (permalink)
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351M/400ci Dyno results

Quote:
Hi Richard;

Thanks for taking the time to explain to me, that’s why I love this forum. People are very friendly and helpful compared to other forms I have seen.

Still a bit confused on 270/270, 224/224 @ .050” I get the first number is intake, second is exhaust, so the 270 is total duration, while the 224 is duration (22.4 degrees of camshaft rotation) when it is open 0.050 or more?

Sorry if I am asking obvious questions - this is all new to me.
let's take a typical cam and look at how duration is expressed. The point at which lobe lift first begins is often difficult to identify since the profile is very gradual at this point. A long time ago, the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) decided that 0.006 inch of valve lift was a good place to start, but not all cam manufacturers adhered to that standard. They chose instead to use different heights of tappet lift, usually between 0.004/0.006 inch. lets use 0.004 inch as an example, once lobe lift achieves 0.004 inch, you start recording the number of crankshaft degrees it takes for the lobe to run all the way through max lift and back to 0.004-inch lobe lift on the closing side. Let's say this is 270 degrees. This is the advertised duration of the lobe because this is the number that most cam manufacturers use when referring to their camshaft duration numbers in advertising.

The problem with advertising numbers was that not everyone used the same lobe-lift figure to determine duration. This led to significant confusion when it came time to compare numbers. Legend has it that Harvey Crane suggested that all the cam manufacturers use 0.050 inch of tappet lift as a common lobe-lift point that all cam manufacturers would use so that we could compare the cams. This is the number that most people use when referring to duration specs since it uses a common data point. For example, a Crane PowerMax 278 flat-tappet hydraulic has an advertised duration of 278 degrees on the intake and 290 degrees on the exhaust side. The duration at 0.050-inch tappet lift is 222 degrees on the intake lobe and 234 degrees on the exhaust. Because this camshaft uses different intake and exhaust duration figures, it is referred to as a dual-pattern cam. If the intake and exhaust durations are the same, then it would be a single-pattern cam.

We should also go through some information about opening and closing points as well. Each cam company calls out valve opening and closing points differently. For example, a Comp Cams timing card will indicate opening and closing points at 0.006 inch of tappet lift. Crane delivers the opening and closing points at both 0.004 inch and 0.050 inch of tappet lift. They both use some abbreviations that you should know. The intake valve opens at a given number of degrees Before Top Dead Center (BTDC) and closes the intake After Bottom Dead Center (ABDC). The exhaust valve generally opens Before Bottom Dead Center (BBDC) and closes After Top Dead Center (ATDC).

There is a simple way to determine duration. Let's say you have a cam in an engine and you're not sure of its duration. Set up a degree wheel on the engine and determine the cam's opening and closing points. Let's say that the intake lobe opens at 4 degrees BTDC and closes at 44 degrees ABDC, both measured at 0.050 inch of tappet lift. Add the opening and closing points together along with 180 degrees and you will have the cam's duration of 228 degrees at 0.050-inch tappet lift (4 + 44 + 180 = 228 degrees). This also works for the exhaust side and you can determine advertised duration the same way.
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Old 07-26-2005, 08:21 PM   #12 (permalink)
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351M/400ci Dyno results

I think after I read this a few more times - it will even stay with me.

Thanks again for the explanations
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Old 07-27-2005, 02:54 PM   #13 (permalink)
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351M/400ci Dyno results

What is the displcement of the engine? 351 or 400 CID?
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Old 07-27-2005, 03:09 PM   #14 (permalink)
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351M/400ci Dyno results

I know its mostly an assumption, but with Torque #'s down low like that, I'd venture to guess they built it as a 400.
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Old 07-27-2005, 05:27 PM   #15 (permalink)
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351M/400ci Dyno results

It was a 351M and they rebuilt it as a 400;

End of last week they replaced the Holly carb with a Edelbrock carb and did a few more pulls. They seemed happier with the Edelbrock than the Holly so they left it on. Unfortunately I missed the pulls so I won't know the new HP &amp; Torque numbers for a while. Engine will be back to the restoration company this week for painting. Hopefully installed back into the car next week.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: grenouille on 7/28/05 5:35am ]</font>
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