The Great Ms. American 3.14159 Chase Truck Renovation Caper - Page 106 - Ford Muscle Forums : Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum

My427stang · 02-17-2013, 10:26 AM

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Originally Posted by JCAllison

It doesn't. And the guys over at the Slant Six Forum from whence came this HEI System have never said that the "module/coil should have two sources of power." BUT, I will check with them to make sure, alright?

JC

Before I get misquoted and the slant six guys think I am crazy LOL it doesnt really need 2 sources, it needs 12V during two events, which USUALLY means 2 separate sources

You need 12V to the coil and the module during crank AND start

If the RUN circuit is hot when cranking, that is good enough, but MANY vehicles, including Lorrie in her original form, have a dead run circuit while cranking, with a separate lead coming from the start circuit

When I ask about the start circuit I am not asking how you actuate the starter, I am asking WHEN you actuate the starter, HOW is the module and the coil getting 12V?

If the answer is, the run circuit AND IT IS PROVEN to be alive during crank...Awesome, the discussion is over and that is not the problem

However, if it is not alive during crank, then there needs to be input from the starter solenoid, just like it was when Lorrie had points and the second 12V went to the resistor

My427stang · 02-17-2013, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCAllison

No. The Wire that USED to go FROM the Start Switch TO the "+" Terminal of the Ignition Coil has been removed.

JC

This confuses me, Lorrie needed that circuit to power the coil during crank before, how can it not need it now?

JCAllison · 02-17-2013, 11:38 AM

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Originally Posted by My427stang

Before I get misquoted

Hey Ross,
Now would I do a thing like THAT

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and the slant six guys think I am crazy LOL

Actually, it would be ME that they would think had lost all his marbles, but they don't scare me!

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it doesnt really need 2 sources, it needs 12V during two events, which USUALLY means 2 separate sources.

That's the way it was originally done. BUT Lorrie's present switching set up doesn't need two separate sources. And actually Ross, had it not been for the fact that with Lorrie's Points&Condenser had a Ballast Resistor-ed Run Circuit, there wouldn't have been any need for the Start Circuit being separate from the Run Circuit before this HEI System was installed.

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You need 12V to the coil and the module during crank AND start.

And with the Start and Run System being separated into TWO independent Switches the Ignition Coil and the ICU are getting 12 Volts from the Run Switch whenever it is turned on.

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If the RUN circuit is hot when cranking, that is good enough, but MANY vehicles, including Lorrie in her original form, have a dead run circuit while cranking, with a separate lead coming from the start circuit.

That is true. But that all changed when the STOCK, keyed Ignition Switch was replaced back in 1985.

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When I ask about the start circuit I am not asking how you actuate the starter, I am asking WHEN you actuate the starter, HOW is the module and the coil getting 12V?

From the "turned-on" Run Switch.

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If the answer is, the run circuit AND IT IS PROVEN to be alive during crank...Awesome, the discussion is over and that is not the problem.

Nonetheless, there IS still a problem.

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However, if it is not alive during crank, then there needs to be input from the starter solenoid, just like it was when Lorrie had points and the second 12V went to the resistor

The way that was done was the second wire from the Start Switch went directly to the Ignition Coil's "+" Terminal and the second wire from the Run Switch went to the IN Terminal of the Ballast Resistor.

Well, just got back from the grocery store, but before leaving gave starting Lorrie a try. She failed miserably, BUT... Ms. American started right up! What a wondrous old Gal she is!

Anyway, it's onward through the fog.

JC

JCAllison · 02-17-2013, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by My427stang

This confuses me, Lorrie needed that circuit to power the coil during crank before, how can it not need it now?

Hey Ross,
As I understand it, the reason for a Ballast Resistor-ed Run Circuit is to keep from burning up the Coil and the Points.

Since the HEI System has a "special" Ignition Coil (able to stand a continuous 12 Volts) and it has NO Points, it isn't necessary to have a Ballast Resistor-ed Run Circuit.

JC

JCAllison · 02-17-2013, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mroldfart2U

JC, No it wont hurt the module to check the voltage during the cranking process.

Hey Dusty,
Went out and unhooked the Wire FROM the Run Switch TO the ICU Module (but it was still hooked to the Ignition Coil), and with the Run Switch turned ON, checked the Voltage at the Fitting that goes on the ICU Module. It was at 12.03 Volts. Checked the Voltage at the Battery, and it was at 12.45 Volts.

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You can hook the timing light to the coil wire, to check for spark.
HTH,

Alright. Will give THAT a try.

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HYAW

I seem to be hanging in here.

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I'm still hanging in there...

Why am I not surprised?

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an edit for Ross: This ignition circuit is used a lot as a work around on Chrysler "Lean Burn" systems. I am uncertain how familiar you are with CryCo vehicles but they use an external ballast resistor normally and when the conversion to the HEI all you need is 1 keyed 12v source to power the module and coil and can be 1 wire with the components 'tied together'. His set up is more like one would see in a race car. An on-off switch, and a push button for the starter engagement. (to clear the air about the different voltages normally used for 'start vs run'...

I have to chuckle at the idea that Lorrie has a "race car" style ignition!

JC

JCAllison · 02-17-2013, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by My427stang

This confuses me, Lorrie needed that circuit to power the coil during crank before, how can it not need it now?

Hey Ross,
FYI:

Slant Six Forum, :: View topic - HEI Electronic Ignition Retrofit How-To

Just reread this. Went out and checked to see if the Control Module was grounded. It was, but the reading on the Multi-Tester didn't happen easily. Am going to pull the HEI Assembly seen here:

And am going to run a Ground Wire from one of the Control Module Mounting Bolts to one of the Valve Cover Hold Down Bolts.

Am also considering getting one of the Relays mentioned in the above referenced article and activating it with the Wire that is presently going to the Control Module/Ignition Coil, and having the Relay take its power from the Starter Terminal which is directly connected to the "+" of the Battery.

Whaddaya think?

JC

JCAllison · 02-18-2013, 03:50 PM

Hey All,
Monday Evening Update:

The weather was horrible here today, and as a result nothing got done on Lorrie. But am seeking an answer to this question:

Could the Voltage Regulator that was putting out over 18 Volts, and this present one that is putting out well over 16 Volts have damaged the LX301 Ignition Control Module to where it would become sporadic in it functioning?

Is there a way to test the LX301 Ignition Control Module to see if it is functioning properly.

Am kind of at a dead end with Lorrie, having checked everything multiple times.

As you may or may not know, she will start sometimes, she won't start at other times. She will start sometimes when it is warm. She WON'T start when it is cold. She will start easily if she has been running and has been shut down.

Any help would be appreciated.

JC

My427stang · 02-18-2013, 05:41 PM

Generally, a module fails hot, or it fails continuously.

With that being said, I believe most auto parts stores can test them now. I'd start with Advance Auto Parts. I haven't had them test one but I hear they can

JCAllison · 02-19-2013, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by My427stang

Generally, a module fails hot, or it fails continuously.

Hey Ross,
It was understood that the Module didn't deal with heat very well, and that was the reason that it was mounted on the accompanying Heat Sink.

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With that being said, I believe most auto parts stores can test them now.

Am apprehensive about having any of the Auto Parts Stores test anything here.

Took an alternator to AutoZone some months back and the first thing that the guy at the AZ said was "What year Alternator is it?" And I said: "I don't know, but it doesn't matter, all the Alternators are the same." And he said: "Well, I can't go any further because the computer won't work without first entering a date." So I told him that Lorrie was a 1967 Dodge. He punched that into the computer and it told him what cable to use to connect the Alternator to the Testing Machine.

He ran the Test and the Machine indicated that it had failed the Test.

The Alternator was subsequently taken to Smith Auto Electric and they tested it and said that there was nothing wrong with it.

The guys at AutoZone know nothing about automotive stuff. Their qualifications for working at an Auto Parts Store is that they know how to run the Store's computer which tell the guys how to use the Testing Equipment.

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I'd start with Advance Auto Parts.

There isn't an Advance Auto Parts in the area. We have NAPA, AutoZone and O'Reilly's.

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I haven't had them test one but I hear they can

Went yesterday to see if my neighbor Robert would come help me test to see what Voltage is going to the Control Module WHILE the Starter is cranking the Engine. And by the time we were ready to go do the test, it had started to rain, so it got put off till today.

Weather here is supposed to be nice today, but go back to rain for the rest of the week.

Will let you know what happens with today's test.

Today's test is the LAST thing that can be checked. And if Lorrie doesn't pass this test, there's little that can be done because Lorrie has the BIGGEST Battery available.

If there's not enough electricity to run the Starter AND the HEI System at the same time then I don't know what else to do.

Maybe get another Alternator Bracket, another Alternator, and another Voltage Regulator and put a second Battery into the System. Then run the HEI System off of one Battery and the Starter off of the second Battery.

Anyway, thanks for the response. Hope you are well.

JC

My427stang · 02-19-2013, 03:51 AM

I cannot imagine it is a battery problem, your numbers have been good

I do think the possibility of a poor ground while being mounted to the body is a valid concern, run the ground wire the way you wanted

Also, have you determined there is no spark yet? My guess is that you are correct, because you did foul a set of plugs earlier correct?

Look up "How to test a 4 pin HEI module" on Google, I found varying results. Maybe you can get somewhere with a voltmeter.

However, if unable/unwilling to have a someone else test it, either you figure out how, or just replace it blindly.

One clarification, I did not say "a module cannot deal with heat" although a true statement to an extent, I said "they generally fail when hot"

Big difference, failing modules tend to act goofy when they get warmer, like after running for a while, or they fail altogether regardless of temp, rarely are they intermittent when cold.

One last comment, HEI modules, can often get fussy in GM vehicles when retrofitted to an earlier vehicle with a points-style voltage regulator. That style lends itself to small voltage spikes as the points open and close. I have seen early Camaros burn HEIs left and right, then you swap to a electronic regulator and life is well. I am not saying it IS a problem, but if you keep eating modules you may want to consider it, or possibly experiment with a condenser into the ignition wiring

JCAllison · 02-19-2013, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by My427stang

I cannot imagine it is a battery problem, your numbers have been good.

Hey Ross,
Looking back on all the messing with the Battery, it all seems so confused. But as David (PSIG) mentioned, what needs to be done is to fix one thing at a time. In this case, the Voltage Regulator which is permitting over 16 Volts to be delivered to the Battery.

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I do think the possibility of a poor ground while being mounted to the body is a valid concern, run the ground wire the way you wanted.

Have checked the Ground and it seems to be alright, but am going to be running a dedicated Ground Wire from the Module hopefully today.

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Also, have you determined there is no spark yet?

Am going to do that AGAIN today. Have done it before and there has ALWAYS been Spark at the Spark Plugs.

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My guess is that you are correct, because you did foul a set of plugs earlier correct?

That was postulated by Dusty, and was the impetus behind changing the NGK ZFR5N Spark Plugs out. And wonder of wonders Lorrie started right up. BUT, then she went back to not starting EVEN with the NEW Plugs.

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Look up "How to test a 4 pin HEI module" on Google, I found varying results. Maybe you can get somewhere with a voltmeter.

I did this search, and found it quite confusing as they are talking about the GM Ignition System, and speak in colors of wires which are not used in this application.

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However, if unable/unwilling to have a someone else test it, either you figure out how, or just replace it blindly.

That MAY be what HAS to be done.

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One clarification, I did not say "a module cannot deal with heat" although a true statement to an extent, I said "they generally fail when hot".

Alright. My statement was due to the instructions on how to do this modification specifically mentioned that the Control Module NEEDED a Heat Sink.

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Big difference, failing modules tend to act goofy when they get warmer, like after running for a while, or they fail altogether regardless of temp, rarely are they intermittent when cold.

Well, there is certainly something "goofy" going on with Lorrie.

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One last comment, HEI modules, can often get fussy in GM vehicles when retrofitted to an earlier vehicle with a points-style voltage regulator. That style lends itself to small voltage spikes as the points open and close.

You may be hitting on something here that needs to be checked out.

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I have seen early Camaros burn HEIs left and right, then you swap to a electronic regulator and life is well.

That might be what should be done instead of getting another STOCK Mopar Voltage Regulator.

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I am not saying it IS a problem, but if you keep eating modules you may want to consider it,

Will look into this.

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or possibly experiment with a condenser into the ignition wiring

Am not sure how that would be done, but this is a time of learning.

The weather here today is really pretty although a bit chilly. But it is supposed to start raining here later tonight and is going to be inclement for the rest of the week. Just as well as I am kind of burned out with all this confusion and failure at dealing with all this. Probably a break away from it all for a while would be a good idea.

Anyway Ross, thanks for the response. Am not getting any responses from the Slant Six Forum or Allpar. Apparently hardly anyone knows anything about how this system works or how to diagnose it, or those that know aren't kindly disposed to share their precious knowledge. AND all this MIGHAT not even be a problem with the HEI System. It could possibly be something quite unrelated. "I don't know... I just don't know." (Phil Silvers as Sgt. Bilko)

JC

JCAllison · 02-19-2013, 09:49 AM

Hey All,
Tuesday Late Morning Update:

Just got back in from seeing if Lorrie's Spark Plugs were getting Spark.

Pulled Spark Plug Wire Number 5, put a NEW NGK ZFR5N Spark Plug in it, laid it on a Ground, Turned on the Run Switch, and hit the Start Switch and got NO SPARK.

Did the same with Spark Plug Wire Number 4. Got NO SPARK.

Pulled the Wire from the Ignition Coil and did the same thing. NO SPARK.

Pulled the Distributor Cap. With the Run Switch OFF, hit the Start Switch. The Rotor turns.

Hooked up the Test Light and fastened the Alligator Clip to a Ground, turned on the Run Switch, and touched the Probe to the LX301 Control Module's IN Terminal and got a light. So there IS 12 Volts going to the LX301's "+" Terminal.

Also touched the Probe to the LX301 Terminal that is connected to the Ignition Coil's "-" and got a light. Should THAT happen?

Am going to go out in just a bit and do all those tests again just to make sure. If there is no spark then there is something wrong with either the LX301 Control Module, or the Ford E-Coil.

Will let you know the results of the recheck.

JC

JCAllison · 02-19-2013, 10:44 AM

Hey All,
Tuesday Early Afternoon Update:

Went out and ran the test on Lorrie's Spark Plugs again. NO SPARK.

Have removed the HEI System (LX301, Heat Sink, Ford E-Coil, and attendant Brackets). It is all sitting on the work bench even as I type.

Will be taking the whole assembly to Livingston the next time THAT trip is made and will stop at Smith Auto Electric to have everything tested.

Am thinking that instead of going back with another STOCK NAPA Voltage Regulator, that maybe we should put in an Electronic Voltage Regulator. Is that EVEN possible?

Anyway, nice today, rain tomorrow and into next week, so nothing more will be done till THAT inclement weather is passed.

Will keep you all updated on any progress.

JC

galax-z · 02-19-2013, 10:58 AM

too bad you already pulled the parts. you can check the pickup coil by connecting your voltmeter to the pickup coil leads and crank the motor. meter on ac volts. a few ac volts means it is working. actually this can be done on the bench by just spinning the dist shaft by hand.

JCAllison · 02-19-2013, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by galax-z

too bad you already pulled the parts. you can check the pickup coil by connecting your voltmeter to the pickup coil leads and crank the motor.

Hey Mr. GZ,
What is "the pickup coil"? Is that in the Distributor?

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meter on ac volts. a few ac volts means it is working.

Alright.

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actually this can be done on the bench by just spinning the dist shaft by hand.

Actually, if you are, in fact, talking about the Distributor, there are two wires coming FROM the Distributor. They are still connected to the Distributor. They could have the Multi-Tester connected to them and the Engine cranked.

Let me ask you this. Could we change from the STOCK Mechanical Voltage Regulator TO an Electronic Voltage Regulator? And if we can, which one would be best. Was looking at a Motorcraft Electronic Voltage Regulator, but don't know if it is even possible to make the change without even more modifications.

Whaddaya think?

JC