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Old 03-03-2011, 09:18 AM   #1 (permalink)
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tire rubbing on inner fender on 65

For my 65 I got a 225 x 50 x 17 x 8" with a 3.5" backspace. Going over potholes I can hear thumps. So I took a look and the tire is bumping up in the inner fender (pic). I had wanted to lower the car a little, which will make the problem worse.

I am thinking about cutting out some fender. Any thoughts on that?
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Old 03-03-2011, 11:06 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: tire rubbing on inner fender on 65

Straight or turning? One side or both? If one side, are the front wheels centered exactly the same (fore/aft) in both wells? I'm thinking caster adjustment here.

David
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:25 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: tire rubbing on inner fender on 65

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Originally Posted by puttster View Post
For my 65 I got a 225 x 50 x 17 x 8" with a 3.5" backspace.
That's a weird wheel. 3.5in rear spacing?

That's close to an inch of negative offset.

I'd think you'd want closer to 4.5in rear spacing, get the offset to near zero/slightly positive.
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:33 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: tire rubbing on inner fender on 65

I just installed 17x8 fronts with 4.5 in BS 0mm offset and 17x9 with 5.5 in BS 12mm offset on the rear of my 65 and it works perfect! Look Great also!
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Old 03-03-2011, 07:39 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: tire rubbing on inner fender on 65

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Originally Posted by JEM View Post
That's a weird wheel. 3.5in rear spacing?

That's close to an inch of negative offset.

I'd think you'd want closer to 4.5in rear spacing, get the offset to near zero/slightly positive.
yeah, thats a awful deep wheel for the front- but I think 4.5 bs might be tight up front - on the 65s, the upper balljoint is closer than most cars Ive seen...
the 16x7 crown vic wheels on ours fit nice, but theres not much gap between the upper balljoint and tire...and getting the rears out from under the quarters is real tight too- gotta jack the car up rediculously high to tip them under a bit. for as big as these cars were, its suprising how little room they left for tires back then.
heck a F70-15 was 'huge' in the 60's
Tim
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Old 03-03-2011, 07:43 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: tire rubbing on inner fender on 65

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6galaxie5 View Post
I just installed 17x8 fronts with 4.5 in BS 0mm offset and 17x9 with 5.5 in BS 12mm offset on the rear of my 65 and it works perfect! Look Great also!
I didnt read far enough ahead good to know theyll fit under there- hows that upper balljoint clearance? ours has original balljoints with that goofy 'tophat' over it- wonder if replacements would give more room?

got any pics of your car/new wheels?
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Old 03-04-2011, 02:15 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: tire rubbing on inner fender on 65

I have good clearance between the wheel and the upper ball joint. The guy I dealt with on my wheels not only gave me a Great deal but did a bunch of research to get a good fitment. Here is the link to his site.

JD Wheels, rims and tire specials
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Old 03-04-2011, 06:41 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: tire rubbing on inner fender on 65

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Originally Posted by 6galaxie5 View Post
I have good clearance between the wheel and the upper ball joint. The guy I dealt with on my wheels not only gave me a Great deal but did a bunch of research to get a good fitment. Here is the link to his site.

JD Wheels, rims and tire specials
How big of tires do you have on front and back? On the back, is it tight getting the tire on and off, or have you tried it?

On my fronts with my 3.5" BS I have maybe 3/4" clearance tire-to-ball joint but it is trickyto measure with the 17" rims. Obviously, clearance on the fender side is not as good .

Tire was rubbing on both sides. The alignment was pretty horrible though, I got a new onw last week.

Any thoughts, anyone, on cutting out some inner fender to make room? The big question is probably around its support for the hood.
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Last edited by puttster; 03-04-2011 at 07:04 AM.
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Old 03-04-2011, 09:16 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: tire rubbing on inner fender on 65

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Originally Posted by puttster View Post
Any thoughts, anyone, on cutting out some inner fender to make room? The big question is probably around its support for the hood.
I would not mangle the car to fit what is a bad wheel for the car anyway. The negative offset is bad for steering geometry, it's just an odd combination.
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Old 03-04-2011, 10:34 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: tire rubbing on inner fender on 65

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I would not mangle the car to fit what is a bad wheel for the car anyway. The negative offset is bad for steering geometry, it's just an odd combination.

Interesting. Could you explain why this is so?
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Putts drives a 1965 four door Galaxie. Rebuilt 390. 4100 on a Performer, AC, PS, PB w scarebird front discs on Cragar S/S, MX transm w/3.0 rear. The sound, seats, dash and hood are customized.
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Old 03-04-2011, 12:33 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: tire rubbing on inner fender on 65

I have 255/45/17 in the rear and 235/45/17 up front. I have no issues with clearance and I did not have to work at all to get them up in there, Of course thats with it on a lift. Im not sure with just a jack how hard it would be. As far as handling and steering in the front its fine as far as I can tell. I am very happy with the looks as well as the handling, feels alot better with all that rubber on the ground vs. the 14x7 wheels that were on there all the way around!
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Old 03-05-2011, 10:53 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: tire rubbing on inner fender on 65

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Originally Posted by puttster View Post
Interesting. Could you explain why this is so?
I dunno, but will throw some thoughts out there...

with negative offset, when you step on the brakes, the tires pull trying to steer outward causing extra loading on the steering(and all the rubber bushings holding everything against it). Bumpsteer will increase. A flat tire will pull hard enough it will be tough to keep it straight.

as much as I always hated the look of 'flat faced' or front wheel drive looking wheels, they are best for a lot of reasons...if theres enough positive offset to put the tire centerline on the balljoint centerline, scrub radius becomes zero- so on a car with FWD or ABS brakes, steering pull will be eliminated, a flat tire wont try to spin the steering wheel out of your hands- neither will hydroplaning one tire if theres water along side of the roadway. Moment loading of balljoints/control arm bushings/wheel bearings will be as low as possible, resulting in the least deflection under cornering/braking loads, etc, etc, etc...

I still like the look of deepdish wheels though. the deep18x9's I got for my 06 mustang, they actually curve the spokes out to allow appearance of the deep lip, still with a positive offset...dont look as good as the old ones, but not a bad compromise. too bad noones making longer A-arms and offset wheels for these old cars, theres a lot of room for improvement at minimizing scrub radius, if a nice deep lip wheel(even the new mustang deepdish wheels) could be fitted also, could have the best handling possible and still look kinda traditional...maybe someday.
Tim
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Old 03-05-2011, 04:35 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: tire rubbing on inner fender on 65

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Originally Posted by ford4v429 View Post
I dunno, but will throw some thoughts out there...

with negative offset, when you step on the brakes, the tires pull trying to steer outward causing extra loading on the steering(and all the rubber bushings holding everything against it). Bumpsteer will increase. A flat tire will pull hard enough it will be tough to keep it straight.
Pretty much.

Stock wheels are zero-to-slightly-positive offset. The steering axis hits the ground near the centerline of the tire. The distance between the centerline of the tire and the point where the steering axis intersects the ground is called the scrub radius.

When you move this significantly (and 1in is very significant) one way or the other from its design dimension you provide bumps and road impact with more leverage against the steering linkage. The steering feel may change and it will likely become more prone to wander, pulling to the side under braking, etc. This is an even bigger issue in FWD cars where it can completely change the car's behavior e.g. torque steer somewhere between annoying and scary.

Many newer vehicles are designed for a moderately negative scrub radius, though most also push the brake and hub hardware further out into the wheel and use a positive-offset wheel to accommodate this (Fox/SN95 Mustangs 24mm or so, S197 Mustangs something more like 45mm.)

I personally wouldn't consider it a good idea to change the scrub radius by more than about 1/4-3/8in.

Last edited by JEM; 03-05-2011 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 03-06-2011, 06:30 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: tire rubbing on inner fender on 65

I agree with JEM about it affecting the handling of the car. But moreover, it is simply bad practice to cut up a correct part in order to accommodate an ill-fitting part. This is not a question of taste or looks or opinion. Your wheel/tire combination does not fit the vehicle. That is fact.

I've seen a lot of folks do this as of late. They want to cram as large of rim under the car as possible. And while it might "fit" while the car is in the driveway, the dynamic nature of the suspension is not taken into account. I realize this is the popular thing to do right now, but the fact remains that folks are trying to fit 17 or 18 inches of rim into a hole designed for 14 or 15. It can be done, but not haphazardly.

Modifying the vehicle to fit the wheels is a very backward maneuver (unless it is for a specific function such as tubbing the rear on a drag car to increase traction). The obvious answer is to change the wheels, not the car. Sure you could cut the fenders away, but if things are that tight, that wheel/tire combo is going to find something else to contact given the right pothole or speed bump. This creates potential danger in addition to the mentioned handling mal-effects.

I'm sure this isn't the answer you want to hear, but it's the facts from a purely objective engineering point of view, regardless of my personal tastes.
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Old 03-07-2011, 05:07 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: tire rubbing on inner fender on 65

Are there things that move the scrub the other way, like different tires or hardware or using different alignment specs? Or is wheel offset the only factor?
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Putts drives a 1965 four door Galaxie. Rebuilt 390. 4100 on a Performer, AC, PS, PB w scarebird front discs on Cragar S/S, MX transm w/3.0 rear. The sound, seats, dash and hood are customized.
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