Doug nash 4+1 - Ford Muscle Forums : Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum
FordMuscleForums.com is the premier Ford Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 04-05-2011, 08:08 AM   #1 (permalink)
Tech Contributor Gold
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chesapeake Va
Posts: 1,897
Doug nash 4+1

Opinions being like bung holes, I want more than my own.

I have a guy who wants to sell me a DN 4+1, 3:36 first 1:1 fifth, it is in his Duece Coupe street rod, behind a SBC right now. He wants 1800 for the Tranny, shifter and clutch disc.

I asked him what bolt pattern for the bell, and what input shaft it had, would it fit a QUICKTIME Toploader Bell, BBF?

He said "its the fine spline IP shaft, they all have the Turbo 400 out put (comes with the yoke), and will virtually bolt to any bell you have (11 bolt holes on this thing he says).

Why do I want this, I wouldnt mind a 5 speed, I am looking for something a little stouter than my toploader (prefer not to trash a perfectly good Toploader).

What do you folks know about these things bolting up?
What do you think of them re durability, shifting (I dont care about the noise).
Would a worked over Toploader hold up better?

Dennis I know your going to jump on this one, looking forward to your experience on the track with other folks.

Thanks, Chris
__________________

Project 532 Gydyup - 67 Mustang Coup
532 BBF-Solid Roller -Kaase P51 Heads-Victor-AED Dominator - Eng in Prog /Jerico DR4, Hurst V-Gate.
Shortened & Mini Tubbed. Strange Nodular 9, Spooled 4:56, Mark Williams Axles.
"old School - WWDD"
Gydyup is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 04-05-2011, 03:52 PM   #2 (permalink)
Tech Contributor Gold
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Amish Wonderland Of Central PA
Posts: 4,489
Garage
Re: Doug nash 4+1

The DN was the predecessor to the Richmond 5 speed. In there day, they were pretty decent. I would consider them to be a little stronger than the toploader, but they are not in the league of a Jerico, Gforce, or Liberty. The beauty of the Dn 5 speed is the low 1st gear (typically 3.29 or something like that) which allows the car to use a lower numerical rear gear which is better suited for cruising and MPG.

Some people swear by them and others swear at them. A well put together one will endure a lot of abuse. One that isn't well will have you replacing parts all the time. Unfortunately it has been a long time since DN built them so most have been pretty well abused. The best ones were the later ones with the center support bearing for the cluster shaft. S/N 1 was produced in April 1974 @ S/N 5698 was the last produced Doug Nash Drag 5 Speed.

It takes a good shifter to make it all work. It has been a while since I priced a DN, but you used to be able to pick them up in the $800-$1200 range, which is about the same as a major rebuild with total gear replacement in a toploader.

The fine spline clutch disc isn't a problem to adapt (probably a 26 spline by your description) and neither is adapting the output yoke. My concern would be the input shaft length which is probably different than a Ford. Of course it will have to match the pilot bearing too.

I have a racing buddy who has one behind a low 10 second 331 Fox Mustang. He runs it only in Prostick maybe 10-12 times a year and each year it breaks and he runs to Carlisle for parts (which seem to always be in stock.) From his experiences, I'd say the DN would work behind about anything on the street and OK at the drags in most cases where there isn't a ton of torque. With the motor you are building, I doubt it will hold up very long in that capacity.
__________________
Dennis

My little 65' Stang street car:



Dart 428W NA, 4 Spd, 4:33, on pump gas pushing 3550lbs.

10.553@127.81 with a 1.466 60'

Last edited by dennis111; 04-06-2011 at 02:24 AM.
dennis111 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-05-2011, 05:05 PM   #3 (permalink)
Tech Contributor Gold
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chesapeake Va
Posts: 1,897
Re: Doug nash 4+1

Thanks Dennis, always the voice of reason and prudence.
I thought it was a bit high, with Kees toploaders being in the same area, and Jerico's for a bit more.

I cant seem to find the Liberty or G Force for under 3000, so I may just try the toploader and pick up the Jerico or Liberty later. Keep the stickies off it until then.

How are the Jerico and Liberty etc on the street?
__________________

Project 532 Gydyup - 67 Mustang Coup
532 BBF-Solid Roller -Kaase P51 Heads-Victor-AED Dominator - Eng in Prog /Jerico DR4, Hurst V-Gate.
Shortened & Mini Tubbed. Strange Nodular 9, Spooled 4:56, Mark Williams Axles.
"old School - WWDD"
Gydyup is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-05-2011, 05:38 PM   #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: CA.
Posts: 718
Re: Doug nash 4+1

i worked for Charlie Kemp back in 1980. this is a foto of Kemps cobra II imsa roadracer. it had a Gapp & Roush 351C making over 600 hp and a DN 5 speed behind it. i asked Kemp and Art who was 1 of 3 drivers about the DN cause i was interested in one. there reply was its hard to shift fast. it did have a Hurst 4+1 shifter on it. a 1.375" input and 31 spiline output toploader can handle 800+ hp. its the big in and out on the toploader that makes the difference. the toploader is a real fast & easy shifting trans with a hurst shifter. the neat thing about the DN is the 1:1 5th for minimal power loss. the richmond 5 and 6 speeds are copys of the DN. roadraces dont usually speed shift like drag racers do.
Attached Thumbnails
Doug nash 4+1-kemp10.jpg  

Last edited by shiftthis; 04-05-2011 at 05:47 PM.
shiftthis is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-05-2011, 06:16 PM   #5 (permalink)
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,216
Re: Doug nash 4+1

I had a toploader with the factory Hurst shifter in my 429 Ranchero GT. This was a 70 model with hidden headlights. I researched it. They only made 268 of those configured like that. I put a 750 dp, Edelbrock intake, Comp 9000, mildly worked the heads. Came factory with 3.73 gears. I weep when I think that I let that car go. By the time I got it all the emblems were gone but it had the factory cast iron headers. Not sure if they all had those or not.

I wish I had gone the toploader route with my mustang but it was years ago when I began that odyssey. There are a lot more options and parts for the conversion now. My car was originally an automatic car. I destructed 2 C4's then had a $1200 one built. I'm still running that one. It will lay down 6 feet of third gear scratch with street tires.

I would like a toploader with a 3rd gear 1:1 and a 4th .85 overdrive. I think they used to make something like that called a 3+1 but I'm not sure.

I would go with the toploader unless you want to step up to something like a Jericho. Toploaders are still very popular, lots of parts, options and set ups. The close ratio gears would be great. Jericho's are good stuff but a bit pricey.
__________________
1965 289 mustang fastback
Hottarod is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-06-2011, 03:17 AM   #6 (permalink)
Tech Contributor Gold
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Amish Wonderland Of Central PA
Posts: 4,489
Garage
Re: Doug nash 4+1

No matter what you put behind that big block, your requirement of both street and strip with a stick tranny are at odds. I race with a lot of big 5xx motored 8-9 second chevys with either 4 speed Jericos or Gforce 5 speeds and they holdup very well, mostly due to using racing slipper clutches. I would say that nearly all are strip only cars that use purpose built drag racing transmissions.

Liberty makes the strongest transmission, but I don't know if they make a dual purpose transmission that is 100% streetable. Not sure how the Gforce will fair out either but it isn't as strong as the Liberty. Most clutchless shifting transmissions will not be streetable. You can drive some of the other dog ring transmissions on the street, but they require special driving techinques which might get old on a 90% street car. Normally double clutching is needed and even then they might grind and/or clunk. I found that faceplated type gears are quieter and will last much longer than proshifted gears in the old toploader and will work fine when double clutching.

I an certainly not the expert at these transmissions and can only offer my opinion. Of all the commonly available racing type transmissions, I believe that the Jerico dr4-4 built with the road race sliders would best suit your requirements for a dual purpose stick transmission. Of course they are not cheap either, although they do come up on racing junk and can be gotten with shifter at times in the $2000-$2500 range. Here are some basic specs on these (there are infinite options and gear ratios available for a price):

Jerico Performance

You could buy 3 more new BB toploaders for the price of the one of those new and it might hold up just fine. For all my racing efforts, including the fresh proshifted liberty toploader that i toasted, my total transmission investment still hasn't come close to the cost of a new Liberty, Gforce, or Jerico. For my weekly assaults at the track I maintain 2 toploaders to ensure I don't miss a race date. One is liberty prepped and the other is sychro'ed. It takes me an hour and a half to swap them out. Rebuilding them gets into the 3 hour range. Most of the race transmissions mentioned above can be rebuilt in an hour or so. They are also lighter, with the jerico being in the 95lb range and the common gforce 4 speed being close to 80lbs.

For any of these transmissions to live, you will also be investing in a racing clutch. That is the secret to longevity. You may or may not like giving them attention too, which they require.

I can't believe I am going to say this, but for a dual purpose, carefree and easily driven BB like you are building a more sensible approach might be to build a C6 which will take everything that you can throw at it and still be both streetable and ready for the strip.
__________________
Dennis

My little 65' Stang street car:



Dart 428W NA, 4 Spd, 4:33, on pump gas pushing 3550lbs.

10.553@127.81 with a 1.466 60'

Last edited by dennis111; 04-06-2011 at 04:33 AM.
dennis111 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-06-2011, 05:07 AM   #7 (permalink)
Tech Contributor Gold
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chesapeake Va
Posts: 1,897
Re: Doug nash 4+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by dennis111 View Post

I can't believe I am going to say this, but for a dual purpose, carefree and easily driven BB like you are building a more sensible approach might be to build a C6 which will take everything that you can throw at it and still be both streetable and ready for the strip.
Dennis, say it aint so - C6 came out of your mouth? But your right, and I to have had dark thoughts, especially when wrangling with clutch linkage stuff.

Dont know about you, but most of us build cars or other things with something in mind, my case - it wont be a bracket car, and probably only be raced once in a while. We all know how that changes, I can see the racing getting good to me. I am thinking occassional races on Drag Radials, but once you get close to an ET, the bug gets the best of us.
I like the idea of a couple of Toploaders, and getting off my butt and learning to rebuild the things myself.

(note of hipocracy, if I am not building the car to race, why am I putting a 532 in it - - - K9 testocular syndrome - because I can?)

Thanks, Chris
__________________

Project 532 Gydyup - 67 Mustang Coup
532 BBF-Solid Roller -Kaase P51 Heads-Victor-AED Dominator - Eng in Prog /Jerico DR4, Hurst V-Gate.
Shortened & Mini Tubbed. Strange Nodular 9, Spooled 4:56, Mark Williams Axles.
"old School - WWDD"
Gydyup is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-06-2011, 05:54 PM   #8 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: CA.
Posts: 718
Re: Doug nash 4+1

i have had toploaders in my cars since about 1973. my 5500 pound wagon in the foto had a big in/out behind a 550 hp 460(it was dynoed) with a mcleod steel flywheel street twin clutch. the rear had 3.50's with a 31 spline locker. 275/60/15 bfg t/a tires on 15x10 rims in the back. i use the hurst supershifter2 and can shift so fast it sounds like an automatic and i was always hot rodding the wagon when i drove it. put 75,000 miles on the engine/trans/rear. never broke the toploader. i did break factory 31 spline axles, broke Curries 31 spline axles , twisted the left side Strange SS 31 spline axle , broke the U.S. Gear pinion gear once. had the strange iron rear gear case. "NEVER" had a problem with the toploader. i used the 24" length 2.78 toploader. btw the 460 had a holley 1000 cfm hp double pumper and 1973 small port heads with manley severe duty cobra jet valves and Air Flow Research ported the exhaust ports. also had 1350 u-joints with a Mark Williams slip yoke and a Coleman pinion yoke. the car was so heavy in the rear it barely spun the tires.
Attached Thumbnails
Doug nash 4+1-mywagon.jpg  

Last edited by shiftthis; 04-06-2011 at 06:08 PM.
shiftthis is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Ford Muscle Forums : Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Doug Nash 5 speed flamin408 Drivetrain 0 11-01-2009 12:41 PM
Doug Nash in a Fox Body Hager All Ford Techboard 10 09-16-2009 08:49 PM
Wanted Doug Nash parts flamin408 Wanted 0 10-18-2008 02:09 PM
Who has experience with G-Force/Doug Nash style 5-speed? mattrobison All Ford Techboard 6 01-30-2006 06:52 PM
Doug Nash overdrive unit Greg P All Ford Techboard 1 06-25-2002 05:58 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:00 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0
 

Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.