markw

thats really nice, and your lines do look nice and sturdy.. what EFI are you running?

im going stock 5.0, but i have an idea how to make it look classic..

drinkdrivegoto

how are you going to do that? I've been wanting EFI on my 65 but I don't want to lose the gold air cleaner/valve covers...I haven't had any ideas with the 5.0 uppper.


Also, would it be too much to ask for just a simple diagram of this fuel setup? I think I understand but sometimes a visual really helps.

PSIG

There are 101 ways to do EFI on any given vehicle and engine. That's what makes it so wonderfully flexible. In the same way , there are several methods to keep stock appearance, including air cleaner and other stock components. For example, you can see My427stang used a single 4-barrel throttle body (TB), and two fuel rails for the four injectors on each side of the manifold. Other methods are 4-barrel TB injection (TBI), where the injectors are mounted on the TB instead of the manifold. Or plate injection, which is like TBI, but the injectors are under the TB like a spacer. Some guys use the original carburetor for the throttle body in their conversions, saving appearance and money too.
OK, here I drew-up the original Ford system (pickups and vans, Mustang, LTD, T-Bird, etc.), followed by a classic Ford carb conversion using the original tank and either the carb pump or an add-on electric. Notice how the systems function identically, with the only basic difference being the type and placement of the LP pump.

Also note, the surge tank can be in many configurations, with the only requirements to have the outlet to the HP pump draw fuel from the bottom (whether the tube goes up or down), and to have the return to main tank at the top to collect air.

In my next post I will diagram sump systems (like My427stang's is a version of), in-tank module systems, and dry pickups. It may be tomorrow before I can draw those up.

David

Stock Ford and conversion variations. Note the systems are functionally identical:

__________________
-=≡ If it was easy everyone would do it ≡=-

drinkdrivegoto

This is very interesting. I mentioned in another post that I'm working on that Dodge D150 with a GM TBI conversion, the system using the factory pump seems like it would be safer and simpler for that application. Thank you for drawing those up and I'll look forward to the others.

markw

my thoughts for retaining the stock look were-

using someting like this as a manifold, drilled for injectors -

Professional Products Typhoon Intake Manifolds 54001 - SummitRacing.com


and then , with an adapter plate, some kind of throttle body, you can buy billet 4bbl ones but they cost a fortune, so ive been thinking something like using a chevy TBI throttle body, or a dodge durango/jeep v8 throttle body,
and hopefully the TPS and IAB work the same on those as they do in the stock 5.0 setup.

this is the dodge throttle body, they can be picked up cheap on ebay -

http://i850.photobucket.com/albums/a...8/P1200048.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/...4-21082732.jpg

cheers,

Mark

My427stang

I run a modified Mass-flo setup. It is based of the standard EEC-IV Ford setup but has a 4 barrel throttle body

What I did to change it was really more programming and chip than hard parts. I took out his burned chip and replaced it with a Quarterhorse chip. This allows me real time laptop datalogging and full control of the EEC-IV computer. Once I got in there I made significant changes to the MAF curve, injector timing, ignition timing as well as shut off a multitude of emissions based events that made drivability much nicer for a non-emissions car.

My next change will be to a MAF that flows more air, currently I run a GM LS series 82 mm MAF, but depending who you talk to it could be a little small for my 489. I tried to get it flowed on a bench, but the cost to put it on a bench that flows that much air really would cost as much as just trying the experiment with another MAF

I'll put a Ford slot style MAF in a larger collar and see how it does on top. It runs hard to 6300 or so now, but I think a bit more MAF may just keep it breathing a little deeper.

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70 Sportsroof, 427 FE/489 cid, TKO-600, 31 spline 4.10, A/C. modified Mass-flo EFI/CnC ported Victor.

markw

cool, is the quarterhorse something you can just plug in and start using? or is there more stuff to buy? i was looking at tuner computers and they are pricy. i`m definitely interested in datalogging and tuning my stock setup.

**edit** been looking at this, it look slike all you need is the quarterhorse, some software and a wide band O2.. ?

cheers,

Mark

PSIG

OK, I've been a bit busy, but here is my next graphic for EFI fuel pump module systems. Once I finish the basic types, I'll include them all in a Tech article for reference. Note none of the drawings include stuff like secondary filters and pulse dampeners to keep them clearer and cleaner.

Fuel pump modules are now used on most factory vehicles, and while efficient and hidden, are very expensive and more labor intensive to install, maintain or replace than typical $25 to $75 surge tank systems. They are also nearly always top-mount only, making it more difficult to adapt them to classic conversions.

Module systems combine a surge tank (raised-sump), low-pressure and high-pressure pumps. The LP pumps are often venturi pumps powered by the HP pump. Others use a centrifugal pump that is built-in to the HP pump base. The LP pump simply sucks fuel up from the tank bottom and dumps it into the module - now acting as a surge tank. The HP pump then draws directly from the module and sends it at high pressure to the fuel rail and injectors. The regulator sends excess flow back to the tank like other systems, dumping it into the module just like the surge tank function, and the cycle repeats. It's all just stuffed into a big hole in the tank.

Note more systems are going to returnless, where the regulator is placed in the module as well. the function is the same, and the regulator simply bypasses as usual right back into the module. Due to vapor lock concerns and improved atomization, these systems typically run 4 BAR (~58 PSIG) or higher at WOT, compared to typical 36-45 psig of standard return systems. Also, some systems use a modulated HP pump to regulate pressure, but in that case there is still a bypass back into the module to maintain cooling flow through the pump.

Raised sump and dry-pickup systems in a few days...

David

Module systems combine all the features of the surge tank system into an in-tank module:

__________________
-=≡ If it was easy everyone would do it ≡=-

drinkdrivegoto

This is really great info...I work with this setup a few times a month, always just pump replacement and never taking the time to figure out what they really do. We've been trying to understand at the shop why we need to run a surge tank and two filters when we don't have them on the cars we work on...or so we thought. Thanks for the enlightenment.

puttster

If you go with the stock tank fueling an EFI, would the mechanical pump --> reservoir/surge tank --> HP pump be a more reliable way to go than a HP pump back at the tank?

__________________
When you're going through hell, keep going.
Putts drives a 1965 four door Galaxie. Rebuilt 390. 4100 on a Performer, AC, PS, PB w scarebird front discs, COM MX transm w/3.0 R.E. The seats, dash and hood are customized.

markw

superb info! this is really interesting stuff.. thanks !

5.0 Chero

I have been running carburetor fuel tank --> reservoir/surge tank --> rear mount HP pump with the return supplying the reservoir on a mostly stock 5.0 HO in my 73 Ranchero for years with out an issue....

PSIG

Than just a HP pump at the tank? Yes, unless you have a method to keep fuel at the HP pump pickup fully 100% of the time until the tank is dry. The primary benefits of a surge tank system are low cost, ease of installation (no tank mods), ease of maintenance, wide choice of components (no size restrictions), and that they do not have to be at a certain location or height - put the surge tank and HP pump anywhere - chassis rail, trunk, fender apron, wheel well, wherever.

A single HP pump (only) can be done by using a sump system, which is simply a pocket for sufficient fuel to collect around the pickup even when the fuel level is very low. Factory carb tanks usually do not have these, but can be modified for one, or a variation such as 5.0Chero's "surge tank", which he is actually using as a gravity-fed sump. Or, as My427stang is using a raised sump. Those systems are coming next.

David

__________________
-=≡ If it was easy everyone would do it ≡=-

puttster

EFI kits say the HP pump should be below the tank, but maybe they mean below the big tank, not the surge?

__________________
When you're going through hell, keep going.
Putts drives a 1965 four door Galaxie. Rebuilt 390. 4100 on a Performer, AC, PS, PB w scarebird front discs, COM MX transm w/3.0 R.E. The seats, dash and hood are customized.

5.0 Chero

Mine is above as well as the "surge" tank.