Brake question.... Master Cylinder question to be exact. - Ford Muscle Forums : Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum
 
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-22-2005, 12:31 PM Thread Starter
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Brake question.... Master Cylinder question to be exact.

Ok. I picked up a master cylinder for our disc swap (front disc rear drum) on our 65 Galaxie.

I ended up getting a 78 or 77 Tbird MC (power MC). I got this ONLY because it was the only one in stock (I had a list of options). Now before I do anything else I have just a few questions, That I need some help with.

1-Is there a difference between a power vs. non-power inside where the rod goes?

2-What should I look for? Does anyone have a pic to share with how the inside of the manual MC looks like in the rod end?Or just a good description.

There is one more, Rather stupid question I have...
In order for the MC to work, Does your brake peddle push or pull on the MC.?? Power vs. non-power?

I do not want to make a bad choice here. And I am looking to learn a little bit more about this topic.

Thanks Y'ALL!

[ This Message was edited by: wildosvt01 on 4/23/05 12:35am ]
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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-22-2005, 12:49 PM
 
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Brake question.... Master Cylinder question to be exact.

Quote:
On 2005-04-22 12:31, wildosvt01 wrote:
Ok. I picked up a master cylinder for our disc swap (front disc rear drum) on our 65 Galaxie.

I ended up getting a 78 or 77 Tbird MC (power MC). I got this ONLY because it was the only one in stock (I had a list of options). Now before I do anything else I have just a few questions, That I need some help with.

1-Is there a difference between a power vs. non-power inside where the rod goes?

2-What should I look for? Does anyone have a pic to share with how the inside of the manual MC looks like in the rod end?Or just a good description.

There is one more, Rather stupid question I have...
In order for the MC to work, Does your brake peddle push or pull on the MC.?? Power vs. non-power?

I do not want to make a bad choice here. And I am looking to learn a little bit more about this topic.

Thanks Y'ALL!

[ This Message was edited by: wildosvt01 on 4/23/05 12:35am ]
1: There is no difference in the MC where the rod goes. But there is a differece in the MC itself if you use a power brake MC without the booster it will take a real a strong push to get the brakes to work.

2: The inside of the MC where the rod goes will look like a cup, the end of the rod is like a ball.

3: With both the power and non power MC's the rod pushes into the MC.

Good luck
Gerry

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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-22-2005, 12:53 PM Thread Starter
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Brake question.... Master Cylinder question to be exact.

Dang! So I might as well take my *** back to the parts store and get a manual disc front and rear drum MC then huh?



Thank you so VERY much for chiming in!

Oh just though of something. My reading lead me to think of something.
There is "supposed" to be a difference between brake peddles from power to non-power. Non-power having more leverage. Would this in turn make the harshness of a power MC in my non-power car work out to my benefit?
On the same tocken, I have read that if you use a manual master (non-power) on an originally equipped power braked car it will not work "properly". Like using a power set up in a originally manual braked car works, But is touchy.

So am I still needing ot head back to the autoparts store?

[ This Message was edited by: wildosvt01 on 4/23/05 12:59am ]

[ This Message was edited by: wildosvt01 on 4/23/05 1:01am ]
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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-22-2005, 03:50 PM
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Brake question.... Master Cylinder question to be exact.

i was under the impression that the mc for manual and power were different. I think the manual has deeper hole for the pushrod
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-23-2005, 01:04 PM Thread Starter
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Brake question.... Master Cylinder question to be exact.

72 replies. Anyone care to chime in with your thoughts on this?

Wildo
1965 Galaxie Fastback-351C 2v/C4 with a 3.50 Trac-Loc
2007 Torch Red Shelby GT500
2004 Marauder/2004 Cobra

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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-23-2005, 04:24 PM
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Brake question.... Master Cylinder question to be exact.

Manual MC normally have a larger bore. I like using MC's from 3/4-1 ton pickups on my manual systems. The larger bore pushes more fluid into the lines (per given movement) and would seem "touchy" if used on a Power setup. Obviously using a smaller bore Power MC on a manual system would place the pedal closer to the floor when braking.

Disk brake and power brake pedals are different than standard drum brakes (at least on early Mustangs) with the pivot being either higher or lower than with a manual drum setup. Sorry but I don't remember which way it is but would guess that the manual pedal is the one that is higher. Irregardless, I've used them both ways and have never really had a problem.

Since you are using manual brakes without a booster, get a MC for manual disk brakes. Alternately, if you were going to use a booster, get one made for power brakes. (In either case, use as an example a 74' PU because they are only offered in disk/drum configuration and available in with or without power).

If you don't like my example, most any early 70's full size car would also work as long as it has disks.

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[ This Message was edited by: dennis111 on 4/24/05 4:35am ]
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-23-2005, 05:08 PM Thread Starter
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Brake question.... Master Cylinder question to be exact.

Awesome advice and insight. Our car had manual drum originally (no kidding right ) and thats how I figured the drum brake pedal leverage would overcome any short comings of using a power disc MC on a manual drum car.

Wildo
1965 Galaxie Fastback-351C 2v/C4 with a 3.50 Trac-Loc
2007 Torch Red Shelby GT500
2004 Marauder/2004 Cobra

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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-23-2005, 07:24 PM
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Brake question.... Master Cylinder question to be exact.

[quote]
On 2005-04-23 16:24, dennis111 wrote:
Manual MC normally have a larger bore.
Dennis


That is incorrect. Manual Master Cylinders use a smaller bore there be increasing pressure. Since you have assist in power brakes via the booster you do not need that extra pressure and you use a bigger piston/bore. Most manual disc require a 3/4 inch bore and drums require a 7/8 bore. While Power assisted M/Cs typically range from 1inch to 1 and a 1/4 inch.

Lance

[ This Message was edited by: 1badmav on 4/24/05 7:26am ]
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-24-2005, 08:09 AM Thread Starter
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Brake question.... Master Cylinder question to be exact.

Thanks 1badmav.

Ours replacment unit has ruffly a 1-1/8th" dia. bore...
I had planned on measuring the dia. of the bore between our stock unit and this one. But your post tells me what I should be seeing once I do it.

I just hope this thread is helping others at the same time!



Wildo
1965 Galaxie Fastback-351C 2v/C4 with a 3.50 Trac-Loc
2007 Torch Red Shelby GT500
2004 Marauder/2004 Cobra

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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-24-2005, 09:01 AM
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Brake question.... Master Cylinder question to be exact.

[quote]
On 2005-04-23 19:24, 1badmav wrote:
Quote:
On 2005-04-23 16:24, dennis111 wrote:
Manual MC normally have a larger bore.
Dennis


That is incorrect. Manual Master Cylinders use a smaller bore there be increasing pressure. Since you have assist in power brakes via the booster you do not need that extra pressure and you use a bigger piston/bore. Most manual disc require a 3/4 inch bore and drums require a 7/8 bore. While Power assisted M/Cs typically range from 1inch to 1 and a 1/4 inch.

Lance

[ This Message was edited by: 1badmav on 4/24/05 7:26am ]
To illustrate why I made this statement, I offer the following facts. Although I am not familiar with the MC's bore sizes that you are mentioning, I did state what was common in the mid-sixties on Ford vehicles. Standard MC bores were normally 1" while Power MC's were .875" or .937". In the late 60's both became the same at 1".

wildosvt01

The Big Truck MC's for 72' are 1 1/4" for all drum and 1 1/8" for Power (with 1" being standard for 1/2 ton trucks with either MC.) You can check it all out at a auto parts website, such as http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductL...aster+Cylinder

Dennis

65' Stang Street/Strip. Dart 434W NA, Victor heads, G101A 4 Spd, 4:56 rear gear, on 93 octane pushing 3550lbs. [email protected]
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post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-24-2005, 09:19 AM Thread Starter
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Brake question.... Master Cylinder question to be exact.

Dennis. Do not defend. Everyone has different findings. I just really appreciate everyones insight on this.
Afterall,We are all different, So are our findings and experiences.

I would venture to say that nobody is wrong here. Case in point? Well lets just say Ford has not always done the brightest things over the years.

We are just trying to correct the braking on our car is all. I would like to take it down the strip every once in a while for fun, And I do not trust drums at ALL out front. I do not like having the thought of brake fade either. Hence why we are doing the front disc swap. Not saying you cannot have fade with disc's either though.


Either way. There is some interesting findings in this thread...
Like my original master has a 1 inch bore.




[ This Message was edited by: wildosvt01 on 4/24/05 9:23pm ]
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post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-24-2005, 11:23 AM
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Brake question.... Master Cylinder question to be exact.

In my Brake Manual, Disc MC have bigger pistons due to larger pistons on the calibers and factory cars use Power assist due to higher leg pressure required. Pedal ratios make a big difference along with dash and underhood room being a big issue to. So that being said, if you a making a manual disc brake setup, use a big MC piston 1-1 1/8" with the outlets on the fender side. That keeps it away from exhaust heat better. Use a higher pedal ratio, steel braided hoses. I converter my 82 Merc Zephyr from power to manual brakes. Already was disc. With the 460 in it, I wanted brakes that worked with or without the engine running. I prefered the manual due to better feel and control. Rotor size is a issue also. This is why you see theese 13" rotors, heat and clamping power. 13" will stop you easier the 10". But then bigger rims are required also. 11" rotor, 1 1/8" MC, steel hoses. She'll come to a stop fast.
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post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-24-2005, 12:46 PM
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Brake question.... Master Cylinder question to be exact.

I will leave this as explanation enough

twin master cylinder 3/4 inch bores for manual disc application. This is the serious Road race stuff. It works for a reason..........

Dacofa added a lot of good info. I did not really have time to type more. I still hold my ground. Smaller bores create high pressure. With this set up on my brothers Mav it is the closet thing I have felt to feeling power from a manual set up. Frt brakes are stock maverick rotors with 99 mustang twin piston calipers rear brakes are the explorer set up. IT stops awesome. I can only imagine what it would do with some 13 inch frt and 12 rear baer set up. I liked the set up so well I shelled out the 375.

The stainless hoses are great to get rid of that soft feeling in your pedal.

Pedal ratio is very important. what is neat about the said CNC daul master cylinder by JMC motor Sports is that it is designed to work with the older ford pedal ratio.
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post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-24-2005, 01:38 PM
 
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Brake question.... Master Cylinder question to be exact.

I am using a 1-1/8" MC on my manual brake setup, and it is not the best.

The pedal effort is pretty high.

I am going to replace it with a 1" MC to reduce the pedal effort.

Greg
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