Cleveland Build (...Mr. Cleveland post) - Ford Muscle Forums : Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum
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post #1 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-08-2007, 09:09 PM Thread Starter
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Cleveland Build (...Mr. Cleveland post)

Ok guys, now that I've decided I want to build the 351c, I want to put a nice cam that will work well with the 2 barrel heads, not against them. I am looking for sure response and some torque build through the gears... which I know there are probably better heads to use, but we are going this route for now. This brings me to my next question. What gear box... c4 or AOD. This will be a street driven car primarily, but I would like for it to be able to fend off any intruders who think they want to run. I have both and I do understand from my other post that both would need upgrading. Willing and able to do that. I want a good clean crisp sounding. Not necessary a lot of lump idle, but a delayed lump if that makes any sense. There's a 351c on you tube that sounds bitchen to me...

What does this take. It's kind of hard to tell listening, but I like a littke more bottom with the same aggressive response through the power range. Will this require better heads or will a custom cam work with my heads. I'd like to know what I can do with the 2 barrel heads to get a hot running street motor. I am open to solid cam route as well. Most important, I want the noise level to be sort of tame as well.

This will be going into a 70 Torino Formal Roof.
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post #2 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-09-2007, 12:36 AM
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Re: Cleveland Build (...Mr. Cleveland post)

Lets see if I understand what you are saying you want.
You want a cam that improves torque, has as little lope at an idle as possible, sounds like an engine that has a big cam and a four barrel.
You want to do this with a 2 barrel carb and heads.......
Is that about right?

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post #3 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-09-2007, 12:39 AM
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Re: Cleveland Build (...Mr. Cleveland post)

Mate, any motor will rev instanty like that you-tube clip, if there is only a flexplate bolted up with no convertor/gearbox.

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post #4 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-09-2007, 12:57 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Cleveland Build (...Mr. Cleveland post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS1950 View Post
Lets see if I understand what you are saying you want.
You want a cam that improves torque, has as little lope at an idle as possible, sounds like an engine that has a big cam and a four barrel.
You want to do this with a 2 barrel carb and heads.......
Is that about right?

Yes this is correct and the last thing I want to do is build a dawg..., and understood to XDLCLEVO. Makes sense now that you mention it.
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post #5 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-09-2007, 01:10 AM
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Re: Cleveland Build (...Mr. Cleveland post)

I am unsure if what you want to do, with what you have, is going to work. Most cams specify that you use a four barrel and headers. You use a cam to open up your engine's ability to breathe but it can't breathe through a 2 barrel carb.
Ok, Holley makes a 500 CFM 2 barrel that will help but it is set very rich from the factory. You will want to drop the jet sizes at least two sizes and maybe three. About the best you will get is an RV cam or one of the mildest performance cams without restricting airflow through the carb and exhaust. You will need to recurve your distributor advance to help the engine breathe. Raising your compression will be a big help but I don't know how much you can gain by planing your heads and deck surfaces. Milling them for near zero deck to piston height is all you can do with the decks and I don't like taking more than .030" off the heads.
Anybody else know of anything more he can do within the limits of what he has?

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post #6 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-09-2007, 04:22 AM
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Re: Cleveland Build (...Mr. Cleveland post)

Cleveland,

check out the reading under the home porting cylinder heads title on the main forums page. You should be able to port and gasket match the 2v heads to make them breathe better and may want to consider having a machine shop cut and re-seat them for bigger valves in the process. You can also have the valve guides done and have the heads shaved to up the comp ratio while you are at it. Check out the prices in your area for this before jumping in. You may get lucky and be able to find some 4V heads for a little more although they will probably require quite a bit of work too. Since you are using an auto tranny I would stick with the mild RV cam and either an edelbrock or holley aluminum intake with a 650 carb of your choice. As for sound, the guys in the vid are running open headers.... run an exhaust system with a set of moderately tuned mufflers such as the Flomaster 70 series. it will give you a little rumble without pissing off the neighbors. Flows are a little more expensive than some systems out there so look around for what you want that fits your budget. E-bay and other on-line sources can be a great source for used parts like intakes to save you $$$ I picked up a used Edelbrock performer 302 intake for $70 shipped.


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post #7 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-09-2007, 04:45 AM
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Re: Cleveland Build (...Mr. Cleveland post)

Quote:
I want a good clean crisp sounding. Not necessary a lot of lump idle, but a delayed lump if that makes any sense.
You are going to have to talk with a few cam manufacturers (COMP/CRANE) and explain what it is you want and what you are working with. Most likely it will be a hydraulic roller that will allow the events you want but still have a little rump to it. This will give you both low end and high end. A flat tappet will be mostly upper (IMO).

The C4 (modified) will be best for street racing but an AOD can be pumped up. A TORINO body is heavy and will be a handicap from the start.

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post #8 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-09-2007, 08:21 AM
 
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Re: Cleveland Build (...Mr. Cleveland post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS1950 View Post
I am unsure if what you want to do, with what you have, is going to work. Most cams specify that you use a four barrel and headers. You use a cam to open up your engine's ability to breathe but it can't breathe through a 2 barrel carb.
Ok, Holley makes a 500 CFM 2 barrel that will help but it is set very rich from the factory. You will want to drop the jet sizes at least two sizes and maybe three. About the best you will get is an RV cam or one of the mildest performance cams without restricting airflow through the carb and exhaust. You will need to recurve your distributor advance to help the engine breathe. Raising your compression will be a big help but I don't know how much you can gain by planing your heads and deck surfaces. Milling them for near zero deck to piston height is all you can do with the decks and I don't like taking more than .030" off the heads.
Anybody else know of anything more he can do within the limits of what he has?
Uh Paul clean off your glasses a bit. He is going to build a 2V 351C. He has never said he was going to do this with a 2bbl carb!



Anyway, Slik. Shoot for a build similar to CKelly's 2V engine as it is built very well and would make a sweet street motor. You would probably use a slightly milder cam but depends on your exact convertor/gear choice you may not.
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post #9 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-09-2007, 06:40 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Cleveland Build (...Mr. Cleveland post)

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Originally Posted by 1 Bad 88 GT View Post
Uh Paul clean off your glasses a bit. He is going to build a 2V 351C. He has never said he was going to do this with a 2bbl carb!



Anyway, Slik. Shoot for a build similar to CKelly's 2V engine as it is built very well and would make a sweet street motor. You would probably use a slightly milder cam but depends on your exact convertor/gear choice you may not.

Will do... thanks.
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post #10 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-09-2007, 06:46 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Cleveland Build (...Mr. Cleveland post)

I always seem to come accross sweet deals. I cam across a 351 W complete with rotating assembly for $150. I spoke with a few guys and they said I could ugrade to high compression pistons and a nice cam and have something nice. I did not mention this but I need more than motor on the clev. build. I need timing cover as well as complete rotating assembly, so right now these are missing parts.

I will be looking more into the 351w option, but what are some other thoughts.
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post #11 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-09-2007, 07:32 PM
 
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Re: Cleveland Build (...Mr. Cleveland post)

So you don't have the C engine lined up?
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post #12 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-09-2007, 08:47 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Cleveland Build (...Mr. Cleveland post)

Correct...
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post #13 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 04:28 AM
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Re: Cleveland Build (...Mr. Cleveland post)

What happened to the red Cleveland?
All 351Ws are not created equal. Do you know what you got?

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post #14 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 08:37 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Cleveland Build (...Mr. Cleveland post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianS View Post
What happened to the red Cleveland?
All 351Ws are not created equal. Do you know what you got?
It's still available but it will need a cleaning and reassembly. It sat outside for approx. 3 years. We thought it was rusted, but turned out that the assembly lube saved it. The crank has soft surface rust so I'm thinking this could clean up and be re-used. The lifter and cam were still covered with lube. Some of the bores that were exposed to the elements have light-to-dark scaring in them ... I believe this can be clean-up too. Below the scars is clean, machined work. New pistons/new cam, and absolute zero rotation on any new parts. New main bearings. The block is punched .40 over, how much does this change things and is this a big deal with the 2v heads.

The 64 thousand dollar question now is, is this all worth salvaging. How valuable is this Cleveland motor. Another consideration for me is the motors also missing complete rotating assembly. Any dough I would have put into it in performance upgrades, now has to be spent bringing the block back to life, then hoping I find all the other parts reasonably. I am in no rush, but want to know if it's all worh it... especially when I have good alternatives.

I'm patient enoI'd just need to know what type of performance would I get with the following set- up for now.

4 barrel intake
2v heads
cam ??
650 cfm carb
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post #15 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 11:48 PM
 
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Re: Cleveland Build (...Mr. Cleveland post)

Properly setup your looking at 350hp. 400 if you go a bit farther and do some porting and run a bit more cam.


But you would also need all the ACC pulleys and brackets as well right? Does the 351W come with brackets or pulleys?
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