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Brake bleeding issues.

173K views 906 replies 37 participants last post by  SuperGas 
#1 · (Edited)
I have done a disc brake conversion on my 1963 Galaxie as shown on this thread.
http://www.fordmuscleforums.com/braking-articles/510822-galaxie-front-disc-brake-conversion.html

I am having a problem with bleeding the front calipers.
I did the 2 man bleeding job, fired up the car, drove it up and down the street a couple of times, and then came home disappointed.
We then thought about it and started bleeding again.
There is a problem when bleeding the front brakes, but I can't figure out why.

I am using a clear plastic tube from the bleeder nipple into a jar.
We can pump and bleed 3, 4 or 5 times with no air, but then we get a stream of bubbles. So we did it again and again with the same thing happening.
Then I noticed with the nipple closed off, a stream of bubbles started running out. What the?
So is the nipple sealing all the time? It was closed off very tight.
So we go to the other side and the same thing happens after a little while, with the bleeder nipple tight.

Why on Earth are bubbles streaming down the clear tube when both the nipples are tight?
Is it a coincidence for some reason that both bleeder nipples may be faulty?
 
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#194 ·
Danv. MY procedure.

OPEN bleeder, have buddy simply press pedal to floor and freeze. Close bleeder.

Do this on each wheel until you have no air. (IN KNOW there isn't any air in your system at the moment but...)

I've been bleeding brakes like this all alone for the last 15 or so years and I have never had brake issues nor bleeding issues while doing it.

It make sit EASIER to see if there is any air becasue you're not fooled by the immediate release pf pressure, it simply starts to flow then stops and you close the bleeder and you're done. Simple and not that messy.

And the first biach that tells you this way won't bleed braked is an idiot and I'm going to punch them in the nutz and call them Nancy!
 
#195 ·
As a matter of fact Gary, we did it that way on a friend of mine's '63 a few weeks back when he fitted 3" brakes and cylinders etc.
Two full slow pushes on the pedal for each wheel and the brakes are great.

I will try that when I can persuade my brother to come over, hopefully next weekend.
 
#197 ·
I removed the MC off the firewall and was able to get an accurate measurement of 1", as per what was supposed to come with the kit.

I have done a few more pedal movement checks.
When the pedal is down 4", the pushrod pushing the MC has moved about 5/8" or so.
I found out that the pedal is not actually reaching the floor, but is bottoming out in the MC. At 6" of pedal travel, the pushrod has bottomed out and moved near enough to 1". I had to push the pedal pretty hard to reach the end of it's travel. Most MCs have around 1" of piston movement from what I have researched. My old single jam jar also had 1" movement, so I figure this is about right.

But I have some better news since I did that.
I have gained a little extra pedal pressure and lost some pedal travel.


The last couple of weeks when I test drove the Galaxie, I heard some scraping coming from the rear brakes. I said earlier this week that I was going to check them, so today I did especially after I read about residual valves again. :)
When I was going through my drum brakes some time back, I found that some previous owner had fitted 2 1/4" rears and only 2" fronts, instead of the factory 2 1/2" wide all round. No wonder the old drums wouldn't stop! I ended up fitting the correct 2 1/2" to the rear some weeks back.
When I adjusted them, I did it until I could hear and feel friction and the wheels started to lock slightly.
What I found today, was that the brakes were under adjusted. I removed everything from the backing plates, inspected it all, and found that the shoes were not rubbing on the friction material, but on the sides because of the extra 1/4" width. This is the sound I was hearing when I was adjusting them.

I have corrected and adjusted them all, and the pedal is now a little firmer.
This is what I have now.
First 1 1/2" of pedal travel seems slightly better.
The next 1 1/2" is also vastly improved. So at the 3" mark, it now feels better than it previously was at the 4" mark, so seemingly I have reduced the pedal travel so far by an inch. After 3", it gets pretty damn heavy, but if I really try hard I can still get it to bottom out.

So...in the beginning, I started with a bleeding problem where I had virtually no pedal pressure and the pedal bottomed out without the car stopping to a dead stop.
Small improvements along the way have slowly improved it where it got me to where I feel somewhat better with a pedal which is pretty hard at 3" rather than bottoming at 6". Remember that it'll still bottom out now if I really try hard.

What I don't get is that the pedal is now better by getting the rear brakes right, but will I get a better front brake? That is what I am after.
 
#198 ·
I didn't get to test the car today, but I'm hoping with the Gary bleed and new pads that I will feel safe driving the Galaxie once again. :)
 
#200 ·
As for the residual valves, the truth in the real world is half-way between all the banter. For drums - the primary purpose is long-term to help prevent leaks as the seals age. With that 10-pounds of residual pressure, the seals remain firmly expanded in the wheel cylinder bores. This helps to prevent leaking fluid and sucking air. There is a secondary benefit in that it can reduce pedal throw a bit by removing the need to flow fluid to expand the seals and push the pistons firmly outward into contact (not push - just contact) with the other brake hardware. No, as DanH says, the 10 psi does not lift the shoes from the anchor pin. I always use residual valves in drum brake circuits for it's primary purpose, and it doesn't hurt that it helps the throw a bit.

For discs - again, it pre-pressurizes the circuit, but only to 2 psi or so. any more would crate excessive brake drag. As B&F said, most caliper seals are designed to retract the pads very slightly. This reduces contact to prevent dragging that would cost gas mileage losses and wear and heat the brakes to a degree. Disc R-valves are normally only used in low-MC installations for these reasons, however, like the drum R-valves, they can slightly reduce leakage probability and slightly reduce pedal throw at the expense of more drag. I generally do not use disc R-valves in MC-high setups for those reasons.

Yes, I have used them. Yes I know the effects with and without them. Yes, DanV, I will send you a 10-pound drum R-valve for the cost of a padded envelope to your address to install for your purposes - but mostly to end the arguments about them from an independent source. While those with experience using them should be enough, apparently that is not the case here. PM me your address in underworld if you want to try it. If you do not wish to accept, I will make the same offer to Putts for the same purpose.

David
 
#201 ·
Your theory is not 100% correct, only partially correct.

But then again, I am tired of arguing. Keep spreading half-a$$ beliefs/truths. Ten damn pages and the poor guy is no wheres near the answer.

And mumbles, as for ASE Certification, anyone can source study guides and pass the written. Just because a man has a patch he is considered knowledgeable? And exactly how many do you display?
 
#203 · (Edited)
Your theory is not 100% correct, only partially correct.

But then again, I am tired of arguing. Keep spreading half-a$$ beliefs/truths. Ten damn pages and the poor guy is no wheres near the answer.

And mumbles, as for ASE Certification, anyone can source study guides and pass the written. Just because a man has a patch he is considered knowledgeable? And exactly how many do you display?
wow klutz , your starting to understand . written test and hands on , there is a difference

cut & paste/ links and hands on , whats your tack on that ? know you got half the answer

forgot about ase , no patchs , , wasnt going to make me a cent more for having them
 
#202 ·
well nice to see that one knows why r/valves are really used for .

btw , race car with under floor m/c and no r/valve , then one installed ..... very little difference and there was no drain back without a r/valve
 
#207 ·
btw , race car with under floor m/c and no r/valve , then one installed ..... very little difference and there was no drain back without a r/valve
Agreed. Again (like drums) the purpose is primarily leaks and especially long-term. As there is a constant low pressure (suction) from a low-mount MC, if the seals ever do leak they won't leak fluid out, but will instead suck air into the system. The R-valve helps to prevent that. As the R-valve pressure is very low for discs, the reduction in pedal throw (as compared to the effect with drums) is nearly non-existent.

David

PS: Again, the reduction in pedal throw with drums is still fairly small, but more noticeable than the reduction with discs.
 
#208 ·
DanV - as you have corrected the parts in your rear drums; to get full adjustment from your rear brakes, you need to adjust - load - adjust - bed - adjust. Manual adjustment is to turn the adjuster firmly until the brakes are solidly locked, then back-off until most (but not all) drag is gone.

Do the first adjustment, then load them by pressing the brake pedal HARD. Spin the tires a few turns and load them again. Repeat the adjustment. Then bed the brakes properly with increasingly harder decelerations without full stops. Allow full cool-down. Repeat the adjustment.

Have you read and understand the full bedding process?

David
 
#209 ·
David is driving around in reverse/fwd/reverse/fwd/reverse and stomping on the brake equivalent the the manual adjustment?
 
#210 ·
It's actually better, but only works if you positively have properly functioning automatic adjusters. You would start with the initial manual adjustment to get it reasonably close (as the auto adjust only goes 2-4 teeth at a time) then use the auto adjusters to set them just right. Do the rock 'n roll maneuver at least every oil change to keep them nicely adjusted.
:tup:
David
 
#211 ·
Yes, I am a little happier right now with the pedal feel.
Next thing to do is take it for a test drive and check adjustments.

Thanks David for the offer.
But just a few questions regarding residual valve to the rear line.
From my research, I am assuming that most MCs or combo valves have a residual valve in them for drum brakes. Would this be the case in mine? I haven't been able to determine this yet.
Would my original single pot have had a residual valve in it?
I've also read that if I indeed already have a residual valve in the system, then adding another one can cause problems like locking the brakes up.

So......a question I asked in my last post. Will fixing up the rear brakes improve my overall braking performance and help with the front disc operation?
Is it normal that if I mash the pedal really hard, that I can still get it to bottom out?

Thanks Dan.
 
#212 ·
From my research, I am assuming that most MCs or combo valves have a residual valve in them for drum brakes. Would this be the case in mine? I haven't been able to determine this yet.
All factory drum brake systems (after about 1940) I have seen or studied originally had residual valves of some type. Some cheap rebuilt MCs do not have them after rebuilding. Most were in the MC, others in the distribution block (combination valve block) or in the Tee fitting at the rear axle and Y-block at the front. I would check your service manual for what yours came with, and contact the brake kitter for what they sell. You can verify residual valves by probing into the MC ports with a small wire (paper clip will do). There is a thread about that on here somewhere. Most combo valves do not have them, but, you'll never know except by asking or testing.
Would my original single pot have had a residual valve in it?
Normally, yes.
I've also read that if I indeed already have a residual valve in the system, then adding another one can cause problems like locking the brakes up.
No. Stacked R-valves do not increase pressure except to the highest rated valve in the series. A 2#, 5# and 10# set of R-valves in series will give you 10# of residual line pressure.
Will fixing up the rear brakes improve my overall braking performance and help with the front disc operation?
Yes. The pressure created by the second piston in the MC is partially dependent on the pressurizing of the other one. This is why a good system that fails one-half will have a working but very low pedal.
Is it normal that if I mash the pedal really hard, that I can still get it to bottom out?
No. This is why I said a power booster will not help this issue. A booster would simply make it easier to bottom-out. However, if one half of the system has failed it may be possible to nearly bottom-out hydraulically, and any uncorrected flex or slack in the system could let it bottom-out completely.

David
 
#215 ·
Now after my disc conversion I've got the same thing as danv. Soft pedal, brakes won't lock up. I wonder if it is something I caught from him?

I have speed bleeders in the rear. To bleed the system, I cracked one and was kind of suspicious that fluid dribbled out, I thought the sprng would have kept the fluid in. Anyway, I ran a tube from the bleeder into a jar with some fluid in it. Couple of slow pumps later I went and looked and fluid had backed up 8" in the tube. Seems weird that could happen with speed bleeders. So that is one suspicion of the problem. Any thoughts about that?

putts

Trying to keep this thread from dyin...
 
#217 ·
... Couple of slow pumps later I went and looked and fluid had backed up 8" in the tube.
That is very odd, as the tube is between fluid on one end and a check valve on the other. Did any fluid come out when you pumped? You could have trapped air in your jar that is expanding. Is the jar vented or cap left loose? Should be, though it shouldn't make a real difference to the final bleeding outcome.

Though not this issue - when using speed bleeders, check valves (one man bleeders) or vacuum bleeding, be sure to wipe some grease around the threads at the wheel cylinder or caliper to prevent air from sucking down the threads and into the system. Most speed bleeders have a compound on the threads to prevent this, but not all, and not always is the seal still good.

One more tip just for you, Putts - if you want to do a one-man vacuum bleed without a vac pump, add a nipple to your jar with a long hose to the engine intake manifold or other manifold vac source and be sure the jar is not vented this time. With the long hose on manifold vac, start the engine and let it idle. You'll now have vacuum in the jar, so you can crack the bleeder and draw fluid without crawling out and pumping the pedal. Note: Some speed bleeders will not work with vac bleeding. Close the valve and move on to the next bleeder with your jar. Keep your reservoirs topped-off using the auto-fill method I've described before. I'm adding this tip as you're the kind that likes low-buck creative projects with a purpose. :D:tup:

David
 
#219 ·
Sun of a bitch! I just missed 45 paragraphs of crap. SO I'm going to make a few points then I'm out of here.

I failed to mention that your rear brakes should be FULLY ADJUSTED? I EFFING SWEAR that I have said it 3 or 4 times in the last 2 months. Probably in that other guy's 8 page brake adjusting post....
Anyway, I though I already said it so I REALLY apologize if I did not do so! I was under the impression that your rear brakes were untouched and already properly adjusted.

Rear Brakes, Easy. Install, put on wheel and adjust brake shoes on both wheels until they stop the drum from turning by hand. Back off 4 clicks and drive it about 200 yards with the brakes ON. Cut the FUZZ off the new shoes and seat them.

Take car back to garage, lift and support and block for safety, Now Adjust the rear brakes while turning the wheel until they make the dragging sound and back off one or two clicks.

DONE.

Your front brakes will feel 100% better.

The reason you have more pedal is due to the rear being proper like you guessed.

Secondly, There are VERY FEW brake master cylinders with only 1" of travel. They procedures tell you to NOT EXCEED 1" of travel when bleeding, but I do not know why that is, I only know that they DO go much farther than one simple inch.


Adjust then drive again and you'll LOVE your new brakes.

Sorry the guy's got carried away, I guess they thought that someone should since I've been gone for a day....
 
#220 ·
Sun of a bitch! I just missed 45 paragraphs of crap. SO I'm going to make a few points then I'm out of here.

I failed to mention that your rear brakes should be FULLY ADJUSTED? I EFFING SWEAR that I have said it 3 or 4 times in the last 2 months. Probably in that other guy's 8 page brake adjusting post....
Anyway, I though I already said it so I REALLY apologize if I did not do so! I was under the impression that your rear brakes were untouched and already properly adjusted.

Rear Brakes, Easy. Install, put on wheel and adjust brake shoes on both wheels until they stop the drum from turning by hand. Back off 4 clicks and drive it about 200 yards with the brakes ON. Cut the FUZZ off the new shoes and seat them.

Take car back to garage, lift and support and block for safety, Now Adjust the rear brakes while turning the wheel until they make the dragging sound and back off one or two clicks.

DONE.

Your front brakes will feel 100% better.

The reason you have more pedal is due to the rear being proper like you guessed.

Secondly, There are VERY FEW brake master cylinders with only 1" of travel. They procedures tell you to NOT EXCEED 1" of travel when bleeding, but I do not know why that is, I only know that they DO go much farther than one simple inch.


Adjust then drive again and you'll LOVE your new brakes.

Sorry the guy's got carried away, I guess they thought that someone should since I've been gone for a day....
he's been told in this thread to go to rear brakes ...by me .
it can only been said , can't make it happen
 
#221 ·
You'll also read that I said that I did adjust the rear brakes.
But...there was a problem with them.

I was adjusting them until I could hear and feel significant friction, but it wasn't the friction between the shoe lining and the drum. It was the side of the shoes scraping against the side of the drum.

Now that this has been rectified and brakes are bled, I can continue on my merry saga.
 
#223 ·
And to add something that may be useful:

Bias Calculator

and

Mark Williams Enterprises - Brake Technical Information

OP:
If you still have bad brakes after reading and using these pages/tools, put down the tools and take it to a shop. There is absolutely no reason for this to be 15 pages complicated. Your inattention to the correct rear brake assembly may have been the fault all along and subsequently damaged your master cylinder.

These brakes are not rocket science.

I'm not one to throw out the immediate answer as I believe if you earn it, you'll respect it. But I hope someone, somewhere, somehow finds this page and learns SOMETHING before they attempt to fornicate with a sporting good.
 
#224 ·
Thanks for the links Gary. I'll check them when I am back at home.

There are two reasons why I haven't replied in the last few days.
One, is that I am waiting for my brother to hopefully come around next weekend so that we can do another bleed.
And the second is that there is so much going on in this thread, that I am trying to absorb all the info and don't like seeing the ongoing disagreements between people.

Yes I know it's not rocket science, and that is why I started this thread in the first place, as a bleeding issue, because that's what the car had.
The pedal bottomed out with minimal stopping power. With some of the tips I had, I started to get some pedal pressure. And this was BEFORE I changed the rear brakes. Yet with the drum brakes all round, the pedal was very hard.

I then decided about 2 or 3 weeks into this saga, that I might as well get the rear brakes right, since someone previously had installed the wrong shoes. This was still when I had minimal stopping power, so I thought that with the correct shoes there would be an improvement.

I haven't spent as much time on the car as I would have wished, because of some family issues. That's why about a week into the thread that I never posted for 2 weeks. These issues are still continuing, and family always comes first to me.
I didn't want to bring this up here, but I thought I'd just explain it why this brake drama has been going on longer than it probably needed to be.

I'm hoping like everyone else that my disc brakes work good and were worth getting.
 
#234 · (Edited)
Why dadgum Buford, who'd-a-thunk it? :)
kluts can do good on cut & past , just not on anything he claims to know , can't answer questions about the subject .

thats why in one post I said get the caliper piston(s 80% out and the flex hose straight up . then press the piston(s) back . back bleed
most of the time I see that problem , is weld on caliper brackets for rear axles . the reason the brakets are index wrong as shown in the pic . bleeder straight up

add . just went to danv's other thread for a look a his install pic's .
not able to see the bleeder
 
#237 ·
:frown:

How can one individual be such a dumb a$$?

mumbles, you are one crutch short of being one of Jerry's Kids...

It has no bearing whether bled on or off the mount, you simply make sure the bore of the bleeding screw is at twelve o'clock.

And I could really give a crap what a MOE-RON thinks of me. The point is to educate others.

You know, scientists tell us the universe is made of protons, neutrons and electrons. They seemed to have forgotten MOE-RONS...

Did your parents have any kids that actually lived? :rolleyes:
 
#238 · (Edited)
:frown:

How can one individual be such a dumb a$$?

mumbles, you are one crutch short of being one of Jerry's Kids...

It has no bearing whether bled on or off the mount, you simply make sure the bore of the bleeding screw is at twelve o'clock.

And I could really give a crap what a MOE-RON thinks of me. The point is to educate others.

You know, scientists tell us the universe is made of protons, neutrons and electrons. They seemed to have forgotten MOE-RONS...

Did your parents have any kids that actually lived? :rolleyes:
facts , something you would'nt know about klutz , moe-rons are person names , a moron is a type of person . like you klutz ..a moron , without question your one .

here is the best part , klutz your moe-ron is a weak try of a copy of what I say . your not original . know what they say about those that copy others ?

stick to copy & paste klutz , and dont forget to wear your safty glass's . a key board might hit you.

edit , add. klutz , you gone again ? you are needed , your the best example to show whats wrong with America
 
#242 ·
Now, now, girls. The bleed bore position was suggested back on page ONE. I think he said he already pulled the calipers to rotate them around while bleeding to get every last bubble in the caliper itself.

David
 
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