351 cleveland build - Ford Muscle Forums : Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-27-2018, 03:49 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 14
351 cleveland build

I have a 351 Cleveland 4v closed chamber heads 10 3/4 comp, torker 2 holley intake,850 double pumper, forged pistons, 410 gears and 4 speed toploader. My last cam and oil pump wiped out so starting a new build. My father suggests solid like the boss engine and his use to spin to 8k rpm. My hand me down I built with a hydraulic comp 252/252 58-9x would go to about 6500 and he says it was the hydraulic lifters but cam wiped out daily driven. Do I need rod bolts to spin up to 8k or are stock rods good. He suggests having a lower lift cam like 525 but higher duration 320 or so like he did in 80s. Are roller cams significantly better for daily driven race vehicles and about how much does it cost vs lunati 220$ lifter cam set up? Just checkin on anyone with knowledgeable info. It was daily driven with comp 252/252 at .050 hydraulic but wiped out 3-5 years daily driven
Justwayne is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-28-2018, 04:40 AM
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 3,758
Re: 351 cleveland build

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justwayne View Post
I have a 351 Cleveland 4v closed chamber heads 10 3/4 comp, torker 2 holley intake,850 double pumper, forged pistons, 410 gears and 4 speed toploader. My last cam and oil pump wiped out so starting a new build. My father suggests solid like the boss engine and his use to spin to 8k rpm. My hand me down I built with a hydraulic comp 252/252 58-9x would go to about 6500 and he says it was the hydraulic lifters but cam wiped out daily driven. Do I need rod bolts to spin up to 8k or are stock rods good. He suggests having a lower lift cam like 525 but higher duration 320 or so like he did in 80s. Are roller cams significantly better for daily driven race vehicles and about how much does it cost vs lunati 220$ lifter cam set up? Just checkin on anyone with knowledgeable info. It was daily driven with comp 252/252 at .050 hydraulic but wiped out 3-5 years daily driven
So, lots of questions here and lots of changes since your dad built his, but he isn't wrong, in fact, he has a good simple plan that worked then and would work now, but I would tweak it a bit. A couple of comments

1 - Any properly set up solid cam should out rev a hydraulic cam
2 - A properly set up solid roller cam should out rev a solid flat tappet cam

However, it really depends on your budget and the rest of the build. At initial look, if you are planning another 10.75:1 street motor, a solid flat tappet, with EDM drilled lifters, a good set of springs, potentially lighter valves and retainers, should allow you to rev like crazy (and live a long time) for not a lot of money

If you went solid roller, you'd add quite a bit of money, it would be a nice set up, but maybe triple the money and I am not sure it's worth it for your level of build. You'd want oiled pin rollers, need to change the distributor gear, and other parts like the springs and pushrods would likely be a little more expensive as well.

With either cam, no need to keep lift that low, modern springs and cam profiles can handle more lift than they could back then, but his advice is still good, no need to snap open the valves to .700 plus for your use, likely a good .580-.600 lift cam would be reliable and let the heads do their thing. BTW, if you can find a real good machine shop to put a modern multi-angle valve job and some modern valves in it, that'll be quite a gain in airflow too. In some cases, it can be as much gain as a cam change

As far as rod bolts, yes at a minimum, too much risk even if you stayed where you are performance-wise, to include checking both ends and straightness by a machine shop. Nowadays, it may be just as cost effective to consider a new aftermarket rod and piston pair, you could go slightly longer rod, reduce the piston weight and make it even more durable as well as get the deck clearance to zero (or close to it)

In the end, I don't really see any reason to stay hydraulic, unless you were happy with it as it was, however, the question between roller and solid flat would be based on budget

70 Sportsroof, 427 FE/489 cid, TKO-600, 31 spline 4.10, A/C. modified Mass-flo EFI/reprogrammed A9L/CnC ported Victor.
My427stang is offline  
post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-28-2018, 06:55 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Central West Virginia
Posts: 7,348
Re: 351 cleveland build

Solid flat tappet is what's in my car. Hydraulic flat tappet in an engine that likes to rev... no thanks.

That being said, do NOT get hung up on a target rpm. Thinking you need to turn a 351C 8k rpm with mostly stock parts after hearing old racing stories is a bad idea. It won't work... at least, not for long. Stick to building a good combination. A shift point of around 6800 is far more realistic with your parts and compression ratio. My little 306 only turns 6800 rpm... and has lasted a long time, while still kicking ass.

As for building a hotrod 351C... You NEED to address the valvetrain. The stock valves are CRAP. They are 2-piece, and the heads regularly break off and destroy the engine. They also have those awful multi-groove retainers that hold the valves 'loosely' to promote valve rotation. Bad idea for stiffer springs and rpm. They will NEED replaced for any kind of build... even ones milder than yours.

The heads do not come with an adjustable valvetrain. They will need set up for guide plates. This involves a trip to a quality machine shop.

As for the rods... they are good for around 6500 rpm with good bolts. With heavy pistons and higher rpm, they will 'oval' out lengthwise, and the bearing ends will 'squeegie' the oil off the crank. You'll need better rods, or will need to have your existing rods machined so the journals are a bit wider than they are tall.

To sum it up... Don't listen to closely to 'tales of yore' from the older folks. Some of those stories get innocently embellished little by little over the years. With your compression ratio, do the modifications above, and use a Solid Flat Tappet cam around 248-250 @ 0.050", and go kick some ass! These engines also light tighter lobe separations than smaller port engines. Stick with something around 106-108 for max performance. Just use an extremely free flowing exhaust with those lobe separations, as a restrictive one will destroy any chance the engine has to make power. We're talking nice sized headers and 3" mandrel bent exhaust.

Good Luck!
n2omike is offline  
 
post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-28-2018, 12:03 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Central West Virginia
Posts: 7,348
Re: 351 cleveland build

As was mentioned, it's EXTREMELY IMPORTANT to use the proper oil with a flat tappet camshaft! There are special manufacturers that offer these, such as Joe Gibbs, Comp Cams, etc. If you cannot find that, I've always had excellent luck with Mobil 1 15w50. It's the ONLY viscosity Mobil 1 that has enough ZDDP for flat tappet cams. I've run it for decades, and never flattened a camshaft. I also run it in my air cooled dirt bikes. Diesel oil is also commonly used with flat tappet cams. I like the Mobil 1 15w50 synthetic.

Good Luck!
n2omike is offline  
post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-28-2018, 02:52 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Cherry Hill NJ
Posts: 456
Re: 351 cleveland build

I doubt that I will ever built another engine with a flat tappet cam, but if I did, I would break the cam in with soft springs. I know it's a PITA to change the springs again, but flat tappet are just so sketchy these days, that I think it's worth the effort.

1966 Falcon, 347 stroker and C-4
falconfred is offline  
post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-28-2018, 04:26 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Central West Virginia
Posts: 7,348
Re: 351 cleveland build

Quote:
Originally Posted by falconfred View Post
I doubt that I will ever built another engine with a flat tappet cam, but if I did, I would break the cam in with soft springs. I know it's a PITA to change the springs again, but flat tappet are just so sketchy these days, that I think it's worth the effort.
Yes, if double springs are used, it's recommended to remove the inner for break-in.
n2omike is offline  
post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-02-2018, 08:45 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 14
Now the cars had forged pistons since 80s maybe 70s. Stock rods/bolts crank. It may need new block lost oil pressure and gonna change cams. Has double springs and screw in stud's ford racing from then as well. He always like solid with 410s would rev to 8k. 2.19 valves he always said may have had valve job back then I'll ask but really going to check to see what needs rebuilt and change can. Car sat for years he was adjusting lash said it had wiped out solid cam early 2000s
from the 80s car was parked. we went ahead and rebuilt the engine with bearings, same double chain, oil pump and a 236/236 comp solid can. Had rebuilt it again changed to the 252/252 305h both wiped that out or lobe went flat after couple years daily driving. Had same erson 80s rockers and heard him say it was an 85 double pumper. Changed back to the 236/ solid cam and Harland sharp rockers left car parked as I drove new daily driver. 2011-2017 took it around the block lost oil pressure at 200f idol 800 reved it 1500 rpm to keep pressure up made it back home or so and now going to rebuild the engine again. Heads should be good still. Just he mentioned could need new block. He thinks a bigger 320s solid like he had and smaller lift around 520-530 would be easier on valve train. Had we redone long time ago ford racing guide plates screw in studs. Just mentioned the 2.19 valves. So should've had valve job but I'll ask. Was more so curious about the converting to roller not wiping out vs reg solid flat tappet the first I saw car had sat wiped out and car sat again after my hydraulic wiped out killed the 236 comp so was just curious as well as if rod bolts were needed. If the bores are still within clearancr I'll try to use the same forged sealed power pistons .030 over pistons.
Justwayne is offline  
post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-02-2018, 12:13 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Central West Virginia
Posts: 7,348
Re: 351 cleveland build

You've received solid advice, but are going to do what you want.

My advice, is to not 100% trust, and cling to the tales of the 'good old days'. Many bad things get forgotten, and a lot of the good stuff gets innocently embellished. 8000 rpm from a missed shift, is different that making power at 8k. Plus, a 8k bobble with those heavy 2.19" valves WILL cause damage. No way around it... assuming it was really 8k.

With your compression ratio, you are limited to a camshaft that will optimally peak out at around 6500 rpm. Putting a bigger cam in there will turn it into a turd... as there will not be enough cylinder pressure. It will run 'okay' once it's wound completely up, but the huge cam, combined with the lower compression will make it absolutely sick in the low and midrange.

With a 10.75 compression ratio, shoot for a cam around 240 @ 0.050" with a 108 LSA, shift it around 6.5k or so, and go kick some Chevy ass! You'll also NEED an extremely free flowing exhaust with headers and a mandrel bent 3" exhaust.

Building POWER with a huge cam like was mentioned takes a lot more compression, as well as zero room for error with the valvetrain, and better parts in the shortblock. (better rods and lighter pistons for reliability and service life)

Good Luck
n2omike is offline  
post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-03-2018, 05:26 AM
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 3,758
Re: 351 cleveland build

I did two this month, with good assembly, know your spring pressures, use the right oil, prime it, light them off and do break in properly they do well. It can be a little stressful, but every cam I have seen wiped had a reason. Spring pressures too high, lifters sticking, rockers hitting, valves tight. The issue isn't nearly as bad as it seems

To the original poster, you need to find out your cause. Two cams going bad over time to me likely says wrong oil because it took a while, but could be marginally too much spring pressure, tight (or loose, or misaligned) lifter bores. I doubt you sat there and let it idle like a diesel with a [email protected] cam, but lack of oil at idle can do it too because everything is lubed by oil thrown off the crank

Mike gave you some good, detailed advice, just remember, the cheaper you go, the more likely you will have the same engine with the same problems you had before. All the pieces are now decades old and have been spinning around with and without oil pressure at times, so don't just trust them. I build some on a budget, some not, but if you choose to go cheap, you have to think about it just as hard and make sure every component is right.

70 Sportsroof, 427 FE/489 cid, TKO-600, 31 spline 4.10, A/C. modified Mass-flo EFI/reprogrammed A9L/CnC ported Victor.
My427stang is offline  
post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-08-2018, 08:41 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Anaheim CA
Posts: 440
Re: 351 cleveland build

Trying to run 8,000 with a steel valve that weighs 135-150 grams is silly. You need a titanium valve ( 85 grams) to do it. I don't care how heavy the valve spring pressure is. The 351C head "likes" shorter duration with lots of lift on the intake and longer duration with less lift on the exhaust with a ( as previously mentioned ) 106*lsa. Contrary to "conventional thinking" the tight lsa does NOT limit high rpm potential like is does in other engines. The Cleveland head is overlap dependent. The "softer flat tappet" profile your dad suggests is easier on lobes and lifters but will be down on power to a "modern design". I've run Clevelands from 340 to 440 cubic inches and the pattern is consistent.

Experimental Ford parts collector.
GT350HR is offline  
post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-24-2018, 01:26 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 14
It's a solid engine just it would rev out at 6500 with a comp 305h. Said it needed different lifters anti pump up. Solid 320 from 80s said he could take it to 8k. I always used quakerstate 10w30-40 depending summer. Has torker 2 Intake 850, hookers super comp and 3" dumps. 4.11s I need to swap a posi over. Had a jegs or melling hv/hp pump that crapped out the relief spring losing oil pressure at idle when car got to 200 degrees. why I'm needing to rebuild it. Changed oil but going to rebuild it make sure bearings didn't weld or anything. Going to need a cam swap.
Justwayne is offline  
post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-27-2018, 09:21 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Anaheim CA
Posts: 440
Re: 351 cleveland build

Running the stock rods to 8,000 ( I don't care what bolt you run) will cause oil pan failure! The strap design cap will fail over 7,000 if run there for extended periods.

Experimental Ford parts collector.
GT350HR is offline  
post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-27-2018, 10:53 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Central West Virginia
Posts: 7,348
Re: 351 cleveland build

Quote:
Originally Posted by GT350HR View Post
Running the stock rods to 8,000 ( I don't care what bolt you run) will cause oil pan failure! The strap design cap will fail over 7,000 if run there for extended periods.
THIS. At high rpm, the crank pulling the rod down by the cap will cause the sides of the rod to pinch in, squeeging off the oil. It will fail. I know a guy, who after failures (before the days of affordable aftermarket rods) had his machined to be wider than they were tall, This helped to an extent... but still didn't turn it into a 8k rpm rod.

Stories of 8k rpm engines from decades ago are mostly embellished memories. Someone 'may' survive a missed shift that barely tagged 8k ONCE... but that does not make it an 8K rpm engine. That, and people tend to remember things better than they actually were... especially when it comes to cars. Go visit a car show. You'll see what I mean. lol
n2omike is offline  
post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-29-2018, 02:00 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Anaheim CA
Posts: 440
Re: 351 cleveland build

"Back in the day" I contemplated grafting the 351W rod cap to the 351C rod but the rod rebuilder never agreed to do it , so I bought some used Carrillo rods from a boat racer that used a Cleveland. The idea still might work but cost more than a set of Chinese H beams.

Experimental Ford parts collector.
GT350HR is offline  
post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-30-2018, 05:15 AM
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 3,758
Re: 351 cleveland build

Quote:
Originally Posted by GT350HR View Post
Running the stock rods to 8,000 ( I don't care what bolt you run) will cause oil pan failure!
That's pretty funny! and potentially a custom block, crank, and anything else in it's way....

70 Sportsroof, 427 FE/489 cid, TKO-600, 31 spline 4.10, A/C. modified Mass-flo EFI/reprogrammed A9L/CnC ported Victor.
My427stang is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Ford Muscle Forums : Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
351 Cleveland Build vs 351 Windsor Build?? Polar68 All Ford Techboard 41 11-07-2015 09:06 AM
351 cleveland build questions PowerByFord01 Stroker Engines 4 05-30-2013 01:28 PM
Massive 351 Cleveland Build Help nezzie09 Mustang Pages (1965-1973) 3 08-31-2010 12:34 PM
351 Cleveland Build daniel460 All Ford Techboard 6 03-27-2009 08:12 AM
351 Cleveland build HOT_ROD_CAR All Ford Techboard 4 05-24-2008 12:30 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome