AFR Renegade 165cc sbf heads - Ford Muscle Forums : Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum
 
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-01-2019, 10:01 AM Thread Starter
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AFR Renegade 165cc sbf heads

Has anyone here used these heads before?

I have a few questions.

First off I am looking at the Crane Truckmax cam by the part number of 449541 and they recommend the 36759-16 gold race pedestal mount 1.6 roller rockers. This means the heads I will have to get are the AFR`s 1472 which is the emission head. But while reading the website it has confusing aspects that left me wondering about the valve springs for starters.

On the valve springs it states its a 360 lb rate with a 0.600" max lift with a rpm range of 6,300 - 6,500 rpm. Crane how ever recommends the 44308-1 valve springs which is a 457 lb rate with a 0.560" lift with a rpm of 6,500 rpm. Would it hurt to run the standard AFR springs? The lift on the cam that those springs are recommended on has a a lift of .520/.540 and seem like 0.560" lift max for the recommended springs seem a bit too close to the lift of the cam.

Next is the push rods, aft recommend pushrods with a .120" thick wall where as crane recommend is 0.080" thick wall. Which one would be preferable to use for a street engine?

Next question I have as of now is the valves, AFR talks about titanium valves and how they might require lash caps and different length push rods. What is this all about? I planned on using a pushrod length checker to get the proper length push rods for the pedestal mount rockers but this is the first time I heard of lash caps. I have always been under the impression that lash caps are a band aid like fix for improper parts.

Final question I have is rocker arms. I am looking at pedestal mount for reusing the old oem steel valve covers, so far crane recommends their 36759-16 gold race roller rockers with 1.6:1 ratio for $368 but I found that Scorpion has a race series roller rocker in 1.6:1 for $287. Im tempted to just run the scorpion as they are cheaper just like I will be running the cheaper Ford Performance roller lifters for $120 vs the crane ones that is priced at $226. But is there anything to know about the crane vs scorpion rockers or are they both quality roller rockers?
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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-01-2019, 10:42 AM
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Re: AFR Renegade 165cc sbf heads

How many cubes are you feeding with the AFR 165 heads, and what is the application?

These will not come with titanium valves. Those are a mega-dollar option, and are only used with highly aggressive solid roller cams.

I believe you can still order AFR heads directly from AFR. Look up the spring specs for the cam you intend to use, and share that with AFR. They can set the heads up specifically for your application.

As for rockers, Scorpion is an excellent rocker that is very affordable. What is extremely important is rocker geometry. Make sure to get an adjustable pushrod, and learn to determine proper geometry.

Are you choosing pedestal rockers for any particular reason? Heads with those are generally meant as a direct replacement on a Fox mustang, or something that came with them. Fresh builds will generally use rocker studs.

Good Luck

Last edited by n2omike; 04-01-2019 at 10:46 AM.
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-01-2019, 10:53 AM Thread Starter
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Re: AFR Renegade 165cc sbf heads

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Originally Posted by n2omike View Post
How many cubes are you feeding with the AFR 165 heads, and what is the application?

These will not come with titanium valves. Those are a mega-dollar option, and are only used with highly aggressive solid roller cams.

I believe you can still order AFR heads directly from AFR. Look up the spring specs for the cam you intend to use, and share that with AFR. They can set the heads up specifically for your application.

As for rockers, Scorpion is an excellent rocker that is very affordable. What is extremely important is rocker geometry. Make sure to get an adjustable pushrod, and learn to determine proper geometry.

Are you choosing pedestal rockers for any particular reason? Heads with those are generally meant as a direct replacement on a Fox mustang, or something that came with them. Fresh builds will generally use rocker studs.

Good Luck
Engine is a 302 short block by ATK. So it might be bored out or it might not be not sure how much but it is a 302 block. Application is a daily driven truck with hedman shorty street headers, performer intake, and a 600cfm 4V carb with vacuum secondaries.

That is where I am confused because on AFR`s website it makes it sound like all heads come with Titanium valves but then it contradicts itself.

This is the page I am looking at with the head.

https://www.airflowresearch.com/165c...nder-head/#faq

It states the springs it comes with are "PAC Racing Spring 1.290" OD Hydraulic Roller Dual Valve Spring, 140 lbs on seat, .600" maximum lift, Max RPM 6300-6500 (upgrades available)". I emailed them over the weekend but no dice with a reply as of now. I am fixing to head back to work so no time to sit on the phone and have a good discussion on this to ensure I get what will function properly.

All I know is these are the smallest cc heads with a 58cc chamber which should give me 9.5:1 compression. But the springs is one area I am concerned about along with how some people wrote reviews about how the valves are not all the same height and that the valve height variance is up to 0.030" for it to be in spec. That is another concern for me as that could force different shims or length pushrods for use with non adjustable rockers. Seems kind of counter productive to sell a emission legal head for use with oem style rockers but then pull something like that.

But in the end like I said above, only cylinder heads I found with a 58cc chamber for the 9.5:1 compression I want as well as 165cc port volume to give me good velocity for throttle response for a street engine.

This is for my old truck the one I was going to do the '96 explorer long block on. They jerked me around and jacked the price up from $2,500 to $3,500 changed the warranty where now I would have no warranty unless I get the 80-86 long block from them for $2,000. I can pick up this ATK 302 short block for $1,600 and getting everything to do a long block I will be around $4,500 but should make more power than the stock '96 explorer 302 rated at 200hp.

Only reason I am looking at pedestal is cause I like the old steel factory valve covers with the ford oval on them. I haven't found an aftermarket valve cover that would go with the stock look I am trying to achieve that would be able to hold adjustable roller rockers. I did find one that I might go with but I am still on the fence for it. Fixing to head back to work now so I will post after work with a link to the photo of the valve covers I was looking at as a possible replacement for the oem ones if they will fit a poly lock adjustable roller rocker.

Last edited by Rusty_S85; 04-01-2019 at 11:01 AM.
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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-01-2019, 11:49 AM
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Re: AFR Renegade 165cc sbf heads

The listed valve springs are for a hydraulic roller cam. I strongly suggest you consider an engine with the hydraulic roller. Flat tappets have a way of eating lifters and cam lobes nowadays.

What year is the truck? Pre 1982 used a different external balance. The flywheel and harmonic dampner use smaller weight compared to the newer stuff... 28 vs 50 oz-in. If it's 81 to 83, I'd want to directly inspect the external balance weights to see what you've got, just to make sure. The difference is easy to see. You can Google the images to check the difference.

If your truck is a later model with the 50 oz-in balance, a hydraulic roller shortblock is easy. If it's an earlier year, then a harmonic dampner and flywheel swap will be required.
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-01-2019, 03:02 PM
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Re: AFR Renegade 165cc sbf heads

Wow the price of AFR heads have gone up, I'm hoping summit or jeggs has better pricing. Keep one thing in mind you should go through the heads before installing checking valve guides and seats along with valve run out. This goes for all aftermarket heads not just AFRs. So if you don't do that work you will need to add it to the cost of the heads.

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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-01-2019, 05:20 PM Thread Starter
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Re: AFR Renegade 165cc sbf heads

Quote:
Originally Posted by n2omike View Post
The listed valve springs are for a hydraulic roller cam. I strongly suggest you consider an engine with the hydraulic roller. Flat tappets have a way of eating lifters and cam lobes nowadays.

What year is the truck? Pre 1982 used a different external balance. The flywheel and harmonic dampner use smaller weight compared to the newer stuff... 28 vs 50 oz-in. If it's 81 to 83, I'd want to directly inspect the external balance weights to see what you've got, just to make sure. The difference is easy to see. You can Google the images to check the difference.

If your truck is a later model with the 50 oz-in balance, a hydraulic roller shortblock is easy. If it's an earlier year, then a harmonic dampner and flywheel swap will be required.
Truck is a '82 with a 50oz imbalance. The short block I am looking at from ATK is a 50oz roller short block for $1,700 locally.

The cam is a hydraulic roller cam from Crane it is their relabeled TruckMax roller cam that builds great low and mid range power with a power range of 1,400 to 5,400 rpm range and recommends 8.75 to 10:1 compression. My goal of 9.5:1 compression is right in the middle which the cam should like and the aluminum AFR`s should help with keeping detonation down so I can run 93 octane with no issues in the heat of the summer.

My main thing is I haven't done anything quite like this before so I don't want to cause myself a huge mistake I want to do it once and do it right that's why I am trying to get all my questions I have answered so I know what direction I need to go in.

The valve covers I am looking at are the Ford Racing slant head valve covers made by Proform. Not sure how well they will sit with my oem air cleaner I will be using but they will accept roller rockers which will allow me to run adjustable valve train.

https://www.americanmuscle.com/ford-...-302-351w.html

I like the look of them and I can get a chrome push in breather with a hose fitting to attach to me OE air cleaner. Only thing is I am unsure on if I want to go with the blue and pray it matches my eastwood 2k engine paint or if I should get the bare one and mask off the writing and spray it to ensure it matches.

Last edited by Rusty_S85; 04-01-2019 at 05:31 PM.
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-01-2019, 05:23 PM Thread Starter
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Re: AFR Renegade 165cc sbf heads

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iowan View Post
Wow the price of AFR heads have gone up, I'm hoping summit or jeggs has better pricing. Keep one thing in mind you should go through the heads before installing checking valve guides and seats along with valve run out. This goes for all aftermarket heads not just AFRs. So if you don't do that work you will need to add it to the cost of the heads.
I planned on going once over any head I get blowing it out with carb clean and compressed air to make sure there is nothing left in the heads.

As far as checking things such as valve guides, valve seats, etc I can do that but might just hit up the engine builder I know that we use at work and have him check them out for me. Only would cost me a case of beer.

But the pricing is up there. I looked at some edelbrock heads as I don't need super expensive just something better than stock E7 heads. Well Edelbrock Performer RPM heads are the only ones I can get as their other ones will not work with a roller cam for some reason. The performer RPM heads are more money than the AFR`s and they are larger combustion chamber and they have larger ports which isn't what I am looking for.

This truck is being built to be a driver but make the most useable power possible. I still got a lot of other work to do in other areas but with my tax refund I am going to start buying some bits and pieces maybe even pull the trigger on the short block as I think napa can get the ATK 302 short block roller for a good price.
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-01-2019, 05:41 PM
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Re: AFR Renegade 165cc sbf heads

Glad everything is 50oz. Sounds like you've got a good plan! New engine will feel twice as powerful as the old one! Make sure you have a good distributor ignition curve, and check the rocker geometry. The AFR 165's should be the perfect head for it!

Good Luck!
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-01-2019, 05:45 PM Thread Starter
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Re: AFR Renegade 165cc sbf heads

Quote:
Originally Posted by n2omike View Post
Glad everything is 50oz. Sounds like you've got a good plan! New engine will feel twice as powerful as the old one! Make sure you have a good distributor ignition curve, and check the rocker geometry. The AFR 165's should be the perfect head for it!

Good Luck!
Im going to start off using the DSII ignition system and then go from there. Rather get the engine going good and strong first then start making tweaks else where vs making changes every where and not know where a problem is situated at.

For now I know the DSII system works flawless and great. Should still perform properly for street use as well. but only area I am questionable about is if it would be able to be reliable at 9.5:1 compression. Why I am planning on a MSD one way or another after I get the engine together.
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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-01-2019, 08:06 PM
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Re: AFR Renegade 165cc sbf heads

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Originally Posted by Rusty_S85 View Post
Im going to start off using the DSII ignition system and then go from there. Rather get the engine going good and strong first then start making tweaks else where vs making changes every where and not know where a problem is situated at.

For now I know the DSII system works flawless and great. Should still perform properly for street use as well. but only area I am questionable about is if it would be able to be reliable at 9.5:1 compression. Why I am planning on a MSD one way or another after I get the engine together.
Make sure the distributor has the melonized steel gear that is compatible with a hydraulic roller cam. The cam that cam in your 1982 model engine was a cast iron flat tappet, and it's iron distributor gear will NOT be compatible with the hydraulic roller. You'll need a compatible distributor.

Not sure what you are referring to in regards to a DSII system? Are you referring to the Ford Duraspark? A cheap replacement distributor for a 1985 mustang from an auto parts store would be the least expensive way to make it run. 1985 mustang had the roller cam with a carb.

Good Luck
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post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-01-2019, 08:26 PM Thread Starter
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Re: AFR Renegade 165cc sbf heads

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Originally Posted by n2omike View Post
Make sure the distributor has the melonized steel gear that is compatible with a hydraulic roller cam. The cam that cam in your 1982 model engine was a cast iron flat tappet, and it's iron distributor gear will NOT be compatible with the hydraulic roller. You'll need a compatible distributor.

Not sure what you are referring to in regards to a DSII system? Are you referring to the Ford Duraspark? A cheap replacement distributor for a 1985 mustang from an auto parts store would be the least expensive way to make it run. 1985 mustang had the roller cam with a carb.

Good Luck
yep Duraspark 2. I got a new cardone dist already that is listed as having a steel dist gear.

part number 842831, on rock auto it lists
Quote:
CARDONE 842831 {#E5ZZ12127B} Info
Supplied With Cap and Rotor; With Single Vacuum; With Steel Gear (Cast Iron & Steel Gears are not Interchangeable. Use of Incorrect Part Number will Cause Severe Damage to Camshaft Gear &/or Distributor Gear)
I went this route as it was cheaper to get the steel gear vs measuring the reman dist in my old 302 and buying a steel gear and swaping it over.

I already verified by sticking a magnet to the gear that it does stick to it telling me it has to be a steel gear. The new cardone dist for my 351 in my Mercury I haven't installed, the magnet doesn't stick to that gear so I should be safe with this setup.

I even invested in a ARP hd oil pump driveshaft and a oil pump primer so I can prime the whole system before I drop it in my truck.
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post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 06:51 PM Thread Starter
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Re: AFR Renegade 165cc sbf heads

Well I finally got a reply from AFR today.

I was told that the valve springs that come with the AFR 165cc Renegade heads are not compatible with the Crane roller cam I am looking at but was told that the 8016 springs are close to the #44308-1 crane springs.

Said that the 8016 springs are 385 lbs @ 0.560" lift and the Crane springs calculated to 375 lbs @ 0.560".

I looked up the 8016 and it is a 431 lb/inch spring rate compared to the Crane recommended valve spring of 457 lb/inch spring rate.

So what does everyone think of this? Think this is a fair match or should I still consider spending a couple hundred and getting the recommended crane cam springs?
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post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-05-2019, 07:01 AM
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Re: AFR Renegade 165cc sbf heads

I think the AFR springs will be fine. They're really close, and you're not building an 8000 rpm race engine.

Good Luck!
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post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-05-2019, 10:44 AM Thread Starter
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Re: AFR Renegade 165cc sbf heads

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I think the AFR springs will be fine. They're really close, and you're not building an 8000 rpm race engine.

Good Luck!
lol True. I also did a bunch of math last night, the recommended springs by crane they have a installed height of 1.950" or 1.900" and figuring the lift of the cam the beehive spring which is recommended as a spring kit comes up as 352 and 362 lbs at .520 and .542 lift, the double spring that's recommended as just the springs alone is 366 and 376 lbs at full lift. The AFR springs come back as 353 and 362 lbs at full left so they are actually quite close, exhaust side is exactly the same pressure as the beehive springs while the intake side is one pound more.

So it should be good just need to call AFR once my refund check comes in so I can place the order and request the 8016 spring upgrade.
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