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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 05:28 PM Thread Starter
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Roller Rockers for Daily Driver

I been doing as much research as I can on what Roller Rocker would be best for my intended application for the 306 I am building.

I have narrowed it down to just two roller rockers, first is the Scorpion Race Roller Rockers #1018 which are 7/16" stud aluminum rockers rated at 0.950" lift and 950 lbs of open spring pressure.

The second rocker is the Comp Cams Ultra Pro Magnum Roller Rockers #1632-16 which are 7/16" stud chromoly steel rockers rated up to 850 lbs of open spring pressure.



Now the cam I am running is the Crane TruckMax roller cam that recommends 154 lbs closed @ 1.850 and 383 lbs open @ 1.330. Both of these roller rockers would be well over kill. Like wise lift is 0.520"/0.542" at the valve with 1.6:1 rocker ratio. Cam is also 1,400 - 5,400 rpm operating range with valve float at 6,000 rpm

My intended use is daily driver where I will be on the highway for extended periods of time turning up to 3,000 rpm @ 80 mph for 1 to 3 hours at a time easily. From the reading I have done it seems like I should go with steel roller rockers vs the aluminum roller rockers as the aluminum ones will fatigue more quickly than the steel and would in general need to be replaced every 20k miles from what I have seen people stating. I don't want to deal with broken rocker arms due to fatigue if at all possible, I know I cant expect no trouble as anything can break but I don't want to go with the aluminum rocker arms for example to cinch on $100 and then have to deal with being stuck on the side of the road cause a rocker decided to just fail after 20,000 miles.

So for those around here that probably have more experience in this area than I do, what would you all recommend? I know I thought of just going with stock stamped steel rockers but cant find any for 7/16" studs for ford in 1.6:1 ratio not to mention AFR stresses that they only recommend full roller and not roller tipped rockers for use with their heads. I will admit I keep leaning towards the Scorpions as they are cheaper and they do have a life time warranty but Comp also offers a life time warranty against rocker body breakage as well.
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 08:45 AM
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Re: Roller Rockers for Daily Driver

I went through this with my 289 and went with the Comps. I think it was more of a hands on decision because my supplyer had several different rocker sets in stock at the time. He recommended the Comps and gave me a good deal so I went with the Comps. I'm not a fan of the aluminum rockers on the street either.

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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 09:38 AM
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Re: Roller Rockers for Daily Driver

The Scorpion roller rockers are good and aluminum rockers run cooler than steel. Aluminum rockers will be fine for your use. Remember Ford used Crane "die cast" aluminum roller rockers in the Cobra 5.0 engines and they passed the 100,000 mile durability testing and they are 1.7 ratio. I have a set with over 25,000 miles on my 408W and they are trouble free. "Valve lash" is what "fatigues" rockers over time. Hydraulic roller cams are easy on parts.
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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 10:26 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Roller Rockers for Daily Driver

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Originally Posted by Iowan View Post
I went through this with my 289 and went with the Comps. I think it was more of a hands on decision because my supplyer had several different rocker sets in stock at the time. He recommended the Comps and gave me a good deal so I went with the Comps. I'm not a fan of the aluminum rockers on the street either.
See that's my problem I like the cheaper cost of the aluminum rockers but I also don't want to go cheaper if its going to give me headaches. I know ford used aluminum roller rockers on production engines and many production engines now are using roller rockers of some kind today. Just still has me questioning as I want a durable engine but I don't want to build a bullet proof race engine when the truck will be turning a max of 5500 rpm during street use.
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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 10:31 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Roller Rockers for Daily Driver

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Originally Posted by GT350HR View Post
The Scorpion roller rockers are good and aluminum rockers run cooler than steel. Aluminum rockers will be fine for your use. Remember Ford used Crane "die cast" aluminum roller rockers in the Cobra 5.0 engines and they passed the 100,000 mile durability testing and they are 1.7 ratio. I have a set with over 25,000 miles on my 408W and they are trouble free. "Valve lash" is what "fatigues" rockers over time. Hydraulic roller cams are easy on parts.
Randy
That is what I keep coming back to. I probably will go with the Scorpions as the $90 I save over the Comps I can put towards other areas of my build. Just so much inconsistency when it comes to street use.

Next big headache is deciding on 3.00:1 or 3.25:1 axle ratio for this old truck. I was leaning 3.25:1 but 3.00:1 would get me closer to oem ratio with my tire size change than the 3.25:1 would.

Well order is placed now. I verified the springs though, I gave a slightly stiffer spring spec listed as a recommended spring for the cam im looking at to AFR and that valve spring diameter will work with these roller rockers. how ever I have to get them to change the recommendation cause apparently cranes website is now showing a completely different valve spring as recommended that is a little lighter on the spring rate.

Last edited by Rusty_S85; 06-17-2019 at 10:57 AM.
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 08:26 AM
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Re: Roller Rockers for Daily Driver

A little heavier seat pressure is a good thing. When I built my 408 , I used the springs that Ford supplies on their GT40X heads. On the dyno the engine stopped pulling at 6,200 and fell off like a rock. After I got it home I replaced the Ford springs with some that had 40 more on the seat and added titanium retainers. The engine now pulls effortlessly to 7,000 when needed. Hydraulic rollers do need more spring pressure than a flat tappet but not as much as a solid roller.
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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 10:11 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Roller Rockers for Daily Driver

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Originally Posted by GT350HR View Post
A little heavier seat pressure is a good thing. When I built my 408 , I used the springs that Ford supplies on their GT40X heads. On the dyno the engine stopped pulling at 6,200 and fell off like a rock. After I got it home I replaced the Ford springs with some that had 40 more on the seat and added titanium retainers. The engine now pulls effortlessly to 7,000 when needed. Hydraulic rollers do need more spring pressure than a flat tappet but not as much as a solid roller.
Randy
There are two listings for springs, there is the beehive spring and a dual valve spring the dual valve spring has a lower pressure rate and lower closed and open seat pressure where as the beehive spring has more. The beehive is the only one listed as not needing to cut the valve spring seats like the dual springs which is why I used that spec but looking online the cam card for the cam recommends the dual spring valve springs on the card even though Cranes online catalog has both listed as recommended.

outside of that I need to check my scorpion rocker arms after work today, I checked 3 of them on my lunch break and out of those 3 the first one I checked has what I think is excessive side to side movement on the trunnion bearing which has me wary of running it like this as that will be a source of clicking noise. the other two had almost no to very little side to side movement but the first one I could bang it side to side making a click sound due to how much slop there is.

Will have to register my set tonight then email them with a number of how many I think have excessive side to side play on the trunnion and see if they can just send me those or will I have to mail my whole brand new set back.

Had some time left after lunch before I had to head back to work, out of all the rocker arms 1 was excessively loose and one was a bit on the tighter side with side to side play the rest were all pretty much the same. So now I just need to contact Scorpion and find out will they replace just the two in question or if they will want to send me a whole new set.

Last edited by Rusty_S85; 06-18-2019 at 10:48 AM.
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 02:00 PM
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Re: Roller Rockers for Daily Driver

"I" am not a fan of beehive springs . Just me , others love them and have good results with them. The spring I used on my X heads is a single with damper for a big block Chevy. It is installed at 1.900 and has 145 on the seat. The original Ford spring was 105 @ 1.850. The spring I used is so common they were under $100 new in the box from Competition Products in WI.
Just the way this old guy runs , not the ''only" way.
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 05:13 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Roller Rockers for Daily Driver

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"I" am not a fan of beehive springs . Just me , others love them and have good results with them. The spring I used on my X heads is a single with damper for a big block Chevy. It is installed at 1.900 and has 145 on the seat. The original Ford spring was 105 @ 1.850. The spring I used is so common they were under $100 new in the box from Competition Products in WI.
Just the way this old guy runs , not the ''only" way.
Randy
Yep that's why I am getting the springs installed from AFR when I order my heads. They have a dual spring with a similar open and closed pressure. I know beehive springs can give you better rev but I am still on the fence on my rear axle ratio so I rather have the dual springs that way if a spring ever did break for me the second spring would or I say should buy me enough time to cut the engine off before it does more damage.

On the rocker arms I was told side to side play is between 0.008" and 0.015". I measured all of mine and there were a few that was a snug 0.008 but they were all between 0.008 and 0.015" except for one. the one I am going to get them to replace actually has 0.026" side to side play. Sorry but that is a bit too much side to side play to let it ride.

On another note I was looking at 3.25:1 axle ratio but now I am starting to wonder if I should go with 3.00:1 to try and drop my rpms down some at 75-80 mph as with 3.25:1 I will be turning about 3,000 rpm at 80 mph. With 3.00:1 at 3,000 id be running 90 mph. But I am afraid the 3.00:1 would lug the engine down too far at lower highway speeds but then again I am already running a 2.75:1 factory axle ratio with 31x10.50-15 tires which are 30 1/2" diameter vs the stock 27.70" diameter for the P215s. I figured the 3.00:1 would put be slightly under 2.75:1 when accounting for the 30 1/2" tires vs the 3.25:1 that would put me right at 2.90:1.
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 07:57 AM
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Re: Roller Rockers for Daily Driver

My '67 Ranchero has a 3.50 with a 275-60-15 ( 27"s tall) I use 3,000 as a freeway rpm ( part of my daily commute) I am considering adding an oil cooler as the oil warms up a bit at rpm. I thought about a 3.25 but am too lazy to change it.
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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 11:23 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Roller Rockers for Daily Driver

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My '67 Ranchero has a 3.50 with a 275-60-15 ( 27"s tall) I use 3,000 as a freeway rpm ( part of my daily commute) I am considering adding an oil cooler as the oil warms up a bit at rpm. I thought about a 3.25 but am too lazy to change it.
Randy
Yep thing is though I have to change mine as my truck stock is 2.75:1 axle ratio with 27.70" tall P215 tires from the factory now running 30.50" tall 31x10.50-15 tires. That drops axle ratio down to 2.50:1. To be back at 2.75:1 I need a 3.08:1 axle closest I can get is 3.00:1 or 3.25:1. 3.00:1 is closer to 3.08:1 than 3.25:1 but I am concerned of lugging the engine down at highway speeds but im also thinking I should probably go with 3.00:1 as my 306 will be making more power than the stock 135hp 302 made setup the way it is now. It also will allow passing gear to work properly considering I am going to swap out the stock planetary set for a wide ratio set to get a lower first and second gear to help with acceleration as well as pulling. 3.25:1 would put me with 5% transmission slip right at 6,050 rpm @ 60 mph vs the 3.00:1 putting me with 5% transmission slip right at 5,450 rpm @ 60mph which would maintain the 1,500 - 5,500 rpm powerband the cam I am going to run. I just don't how the shift points for passing gear will change with the C6 when I get it rebuilt with a truck/rv shift kit, R code servo, wide ratio planetary gear set, and a hughes tow converter.
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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 12:45 PM
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Re: Roller Rockers for Daily Driver

"Passing gear" is simply the transmission kicking down from High to second , same as you could do manually or first at very low speeds. To change the shift points some "kits" have different calibration springs. The vacuum modulator and governor can also be adjusted to allow higher shift points. I just finished a C6 for my Ford racing 521 engine. I installed the needle bearing wide ratio kit, aftermarket "R" servo, and used the 429 SCJ governor along with a couple turns in on the new vacuum modulator and a Summit deep aluminum pan. I don't have it installed yet but the governor was changed specifically to counteract the low ratio gear set and early shifting. You may ask your kit supplier to see what they recommend.
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 05:00 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Roller Rockers for Daily Driver

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"Passing gear" is simply the transmission kicking down from High to second , same as you could do manually or first at very low speeds. To change the shift points some "kits" have different calibration springs. The vacuum modulator and governor can also be adjusted to allow higher shift points. I just finished a C6 for my Ford racing 521 engine. I installed the needle bearing wide ratio kit, aftermarket "R" servo, and used the 429 SCJ governor along with a couple turns in on the new vacuum modulator and a Summit deep aluminum pan. I don't have it installed yet but the governor was changed specifically to counteract the low ratio gear set and early shifting. You may ask your kit supplier to see what they recommend.
Randy
Im honestly thinking of getting my wide ratio planetary gear set from Broader Performace as they are located up near Forth Worth which isn't close to be but they are in state which means if they recommend just shipping my C6 to them for rebuild it would be cheaper than shipping out of state.

I have seen a few people state that they got a governor for their C6 from Broader to raise shift point at WOT to 6,000 rpm but there is no listing on website unless the guy sent it in to have it changed. But I will be emailing him tonight to see what he says. cause I really do want to go with the wide ratio planetary set it should help my old truck pull a heavier load with a higher axle ratio which would make the truck more highway friendly. Plus who can argue about a 2.72:1 first gear. even with a 3.00:1 axle ratio running 31x10.50-15 tires my overall ratio would be 7.40:1 first gear and with a 3.25 which I want to run but not sure about RPM at 80 mph on the highway would give me a 8.02:1 over all ratio in first gear. That would really wake my old truck up with my 306 build compared to the truck now which is a 135hp 302 with a stock worn out C6 with a 2.75:1 axle ratio running 31x10.50-15 tires.
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 05:06 PM
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Re: Roller Rockers for Daily Driver

Your engine may require more RPM to reach max efficiency compared to stock. If the engine is built to make more power it probably will make that power with higher RPM's, which could better match the cam timing. I don't think lower RPM's always mean greater efficiency, or lower fuel consumption. I've always wondered if there was a simple formulae to calculate what the best RPM would be for cruise efficiency. I think it needs to be someone much smarter than me to know that.

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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 05:41 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Roller Rockers for Daily Driver

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Your engine may require more RPM to reach max efficiency compared to stock. If the engine is built to make more power it probably will make that power with higher RPM's, which could better match the cam timing. I don't think lower RPM's always mean greater efficiency, or lower fuel consumption. I've always wondered if there was a simple formulae to calculate what the best RPM would be for cruise efficiency. I think it needs to be someone much smarter than me to know that.
Crane Cams do list a cruise RPM on their cams where their cams will operate at best efficiency on the highway. The roller cam I am looking at states 1,500 - 5,500 rpm power band, 6,000 rpm redline, and 2,400 to 3,000 rpm cruise.

So long as I maintain 2,400 - 3,000 rpm while on the highway I will be in the most efficient rpm range for the given camshaft based off the manufacturer.

Problem is for me once I move highway speeds which is what all my driving will be being out in the country has speed limits ranging from 65 to 75 mph. People do 75 to 90 mph so I tried to set up my axle ratio to try and give me the ability to do 80 mph at or under 3,000 rpm.

With a 3.00:1 axle ratio 2,400 rpm with 3% to 5% slip would be 69 to 70 MPH with 3,000 rpm with 3% to 5% slip would be 86 to 88 MPH. If I go with the 3.25:1 axle ratio 2,400 rpm with 3% to 5% slip would be 64 - 65 mph and 3,000 rpm with 3% to 5% slip would be 80 - 81 MPH.

So for me 3.25 would give me the most highway speed range in that narrow 2,400 - 3,000 rpm cruise range but 3.00:1 axle ratio with taller tires would put me closer to the OEM axle ratio of 2.75. The 3.00:1 would give me a 2.72:1 axle ratio when accounting for my taller than stock tires, and 3.25:1 would give me 2.95:1.

So either way I go both axle ratios will work for me, but the 3.00:1 would allow me to run 80 mph under 3,000 rpm but at the same time I am outside of the cruise rpm at speeds below 70 mph. The 3.25 would give me better acceleration and would allow me to change my speedometer gear in my C6 to make my speedometer accurate as well as allowing me to run between 65 MPH and 75 MPH and maintain cruise rpm. I just don't know how well a small 306 build would like spinning 3,000 rpm for 3 or 4 hours at a time with Scorpion roller rockers. Its kinda why I keep entertaining the idea of the 3.00:1.

But I do plan on going through the motions to get this 306 as efficient as possible. I built a 02 calibrator in a box using a air/fuel ratio gauge to allow me to read air/fuel ratio at different conditions to help me jet and tune the carb to be slightly lean for no load conditions and be rich on load applications for max torque production. Its also why I got the quick change vacuum secondary kit to convert my 600 cfm summit 4V to have the holley quick change ability so I can custom tailor the secondaries to my specific truck.

Its why I am trying to plan my future steps out as well such as transmission and rear axle which are the next two areas after I finish my engine build. I want to ensure all areas are going to complement and work with one another. Just like for instance I know being a daily driver it will have to be capable of doing 75 to 80 mph to be capable of running on the highways just because other people are asses and will ride your bumper for not going fast enough trying to push you.
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