302 Cam thrust plate difference - Ford Muscle Forums : Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum
 
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post #1 of 8 (permalink) Old 09-04-2019, 08:42 PM Thread Starter
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302 Cam thrust plate difference

Whats the difference between the C90Z-6269-A and C50Z-6269-D plates?

I see in my ford parts and illustration guide it lists C90Z-6269-A as fitting 80 - 84 302`s and the C50Z-6269-D plates as fitting '85 and up.

I opted for the C50Z-6269-D as I will be using a '85 and up roller block but someone mentioned to me the little dog ears on the C90Z-6269-A plate might possibly hold plugs in place to prevent them from popping out. Sure enough some photos of short blocks I looked up shows a cup plug that the plate would hold in.

Im curious about this because based off how ford did their codes the C90Z-6269-A plate is a 1969 design and the C50Z-6269-D is a 1965 design. To me it seems odd that a newer design plate would have the ears but yet Ford went back to the older style without said ears for '85 and up 302s.

I don't think they are anything different, I think they are both cast iron which is proper for my application as my roller cam is a steel cam but the cam gear on the timing set is cast iron which makes the setup no different than an OE roller 302. Im just questioning on this ear aspect, I don't think it makes a different as Ford performance sells these same plates in cast iron and steel and they are exact copies of the C50Z-6269-D design that I have that doesn't have the dog ears.
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post #2 of 8 (permalink) Old 09-04-2019, 09:30 PM
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Re: 302 Cam thrust plate difference

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Originally Posted by Rusty_S85 View Post
Whats the difference between the C90Z-6269-A and C50Z-6269-D plates?

I see in my ford parts and illustration guide it lists C90Z-6269-A as fitting 80 - 84 302`s and the C50Z-6269-D plates as fitting '85 and up.

I opted for the C50Z-6269-D as I will be using a '85 and up roller block but someone mentioned to me the little dog ears on the C90Z-6269-A plate might possibly hold plugs in place to prevent them from popping out. Sure enough some photos of short blocks I looked up shows a cup plug that the plate would hold in.

Im curious about this because based off how ford did their codes the C90Z-6269-A plate is a 1969 design and the C50Z-6269-D is a 1965 design. To me it seems odd that a newer design plate would have the ears but yet Ford went back to the older style without said ears for '85 and up 302s.

I don't think they are anything different, I think they are both cast iron which is proper for my application as my roller cam is a steel cam but the cam gear on the timing set is cast iron which makes the setup no different than an OE roller 302. Im just questioning on this ear aspect, I don't think it makes a different as Ford performance sells these same plates in cast iron and steel and they are exact copies of the C50Z-6269-D design that I have that doesn't have the dog ears.
I think your part number is messed up. First letter of the part number indicates the decade the part is for, and the number following it is the year in that decade. C9 would be 1969, C5 would be 1965. E5 would be 1985.
C = 60's
D = 70's
E = 80's
F = 90's

As for the technical part, iron and steel do not play well together. An iron cam needs an iron retaining plate, and a steel cam needs steel. If you have a steel roller cam, you need the later steel plate. An early cam requires the iron plate.

I tried to use an early iron cam retaining plate with a billet steel timing chain gear in the past, and the plate and gear kept getting eaten up. I drilled an extra oiling hole just to oil the mating surfaces between the two, and it helped a lot, but didn't cure the issue. (this was pre-internet) I finally figured out the issue, and started using the correct plate with the correct cam/timing gear.

So, tech tip... Do NOT use the billet steel timing sets with an stock iron cam retaining plate.
They also make timing gears and plates with built in Torrington bearings to eliminate the issue... but you're usually okay by choosing materials that play well together.

For the right parts, FlowTech Induction is an excellent source for this, as well as other 'particulars' that often end up biting you on the a$$. He sells timing sets with the GOOD IWIS chains! These are the best chains out there, and are the only ones to choose for a GOOD engine. Below is a link to timing chain sets, retaining plates, etc.
Valvetrain A to Z - Valvetrain Components - Timing Chain Sets - Page 1 - FlowTech Induction

From there, this timing set... along with the cam plate referenced in the description.
http://www.flowtechinduction.com/rol...d-race-cs3071/
http://www.flowtechinduction.com/fti...plate-sbf-cr2/

Last edited by n2omike; 09-04-2019 at 09:48 PM.
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post #3 of 8 (permalink) Old 09-05-2019, 08:03 AM
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Re: 302 Cam thrust plate difference

The C50Z plate can be used on ANY small block Ford except a 351C-351M. The C90Z plate was designed specifically for the 351W block and had additional "tabs" like you mentioned which partially cover oil galley plugs to prevent them from popping out. Aftermarket ( roller) timing chains for the 289-302 don't always have the relief ( in the cam gear) like a set for a 351W has to have so that it clears the C90Z thrust plate. Yes billet upper gears require a steel ( or rollerized) thrust plate to prevent galling. the C90Z plate can be ground for clearance on a 289 roller gear. There is no issue with a standard link type ( narrow) chain.
Randy

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post #4 of 8 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 05:49 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 302 Cam thrust plate difference

Quote:
Originally Posted by n2omike View Post
I think your part number is messed up. First letter of the part number indicates the decade the part is for, and the number following it is the year in that decade. C9 would be 1969, C5 would be 1965. E5 would be 1985.
C = 60's
D = 70's
E = 80's
F = 90's

As for the technical part, iron and steel do not play well together. An iron cam needs an iron retaining plate, and a steel cam needs steel. If you have a steel roller cam, you need the later steel plate. An early cam requires the iron plate.

I tried to use an early iron cam retaining plate with a billet steel timing chain gear in the past, and the plate and gear kept getting eaten up. I drilled an extra oiling hole just to oil the mating surfaces between the two, and it helped a lot, but didn't cure the issue. (this was pre-internet) I finally figured out the issue, and started using the correct plate with the correct cam/timing gear.

So, tech tip... Do NOT use the billet steel timing sets with an stock iron cam retaining plate.
They also make timing gears and plates with built in Torrington bearings to eliminate the issue... but you're usually okay by choosing materials that play well together.

For the right parts, FlowTech Induction is an excellent source for this, as well as other 'particulars' that often end up biting you on the a$$. He sells timing sets with the GOOD IWIS chains! These are the best chains out there, and are the only ones to choose for a GOOD engine. Below is a link to timing chain sets, retaining plates, etc.
Valvetrain A to Z - Valvetrain Components - Timing Chain Sets - Page 1 - FlowTech Induction

From there, this timing set... along with the cam plate referenced in the description.
Rollmaster Timing Set SB Ford "race" CS3071 - FlowTech Induction
FTI-Cam Retainer Plate SBF-CR2 - FlowTech Induction
See that is where I am getting the run around. I have the C5O plate listed as fitting '85 and up 302`s. Doesn't state cast iron or not, but the cam I am running is a Crane roller that is steel as far as I know with a steel gear and requires a steel distributor gear. The timing set how ever is a steel crank gear with a cast iron cam gear and I was told by numerous people my setup is basically a OE ford setup with a steel cam and cast iron cam timing gear. So I went with the C5O plate that I ordered as I couldn't find any information, I don't see a C5O nor a C9O being a steel plate as there was no roller cams them and everything as far as I know was cast iron for the timing sets.

I just want to make sure what I have will work as I don't want to cause myself problems by running incompatible parts.

Timing set wise I have this set I picked up last year.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-2138

Last edited by Rusty_S85; Yesterday at 05:53 PM.
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post #5 of 8 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 08:12 PM
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Re: 302 Cam thrust plate difference

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty_S85 View Post
See that is where I am getting the run around. I have the C5O plate listed as fitting '85 and up 302`s. Doesn't state cast iron or not, but the cam I am running is a Crane roller that is steel as far as I know with a steel gear and requires a steel distributor gear. The timing set how ever is a steel crank gear with a cast iron cam gear and I was told by numerous people my setup is basically a OE ford setup with a steel cam and cast iron cam timing gear. So I went with the C5O plate that I ordered as I couldn't find any information, I don't see a C5O nor a C9O being a steel plate as there was no roller cams them and everything as far as I know was cast iron for the timing sets.

I just want to make sure what I have will work as I don't want to cause myself problems by running incompatible parts.

Timing set wise I have this set I picked up last year.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-2138
The MAIN part to check compatibility with is the cam gear for the timing chain. I can tell you for a fact that running a billet timing set with a cast iron plate WILL cause wear issues between the gear and plate. Been there. Drilling a small oiling hole helps, but doesn't cure things.

100% proper form would be to run a steel plate with a steel cam, but people seem to have fewer issues with this, than the gear/plate interface.

My personal experience has only been with cast iron, flat tappet cams. The 363 waiting to go into use has a solid roller, and I have a steel plate for that. Maybe the metal they make the hydraulic rollers out of is more compatible. I don't know... but they do require a melonized distributor gear. Using a cast gear will cause the same issues as mentioned above.

Might see if you can get hold of Ed at FlowTech Induction as he is the owner, and is an excellent resource. Could also ask over at http://corral.net as they are more familiar with hydraulic roller type setups.

Good Luck
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post #6 of 8 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 09:45 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 302 Cam thrust plate difference

Quote:
Originally Posted by n2omike View Post
The MAIN part to check compatibility with is the cam gear for the timing chain. I can tell you for a fact that running a billet timing set with a cast iron plate WILL cause wear issues between the gear and plate. Been there. Drilling a small oiling hole helps, but doesn't cure things.

100% proper form would be to run a steel plate with a steel cam, but people seem to have fewer issues with this, than the gear/plate interface.

My personal experience has only been with cast iron, flat tappet cams. The 363 waiting to go into use has a solid roller, and I have a steel plate for that. Maybe the metal they make the hydraulic rollers out of is more compatible. I don't know... but they do require a melonized distributor gear. Using a cast gear will cause the same issues as mentioned above.

Might see if you can get hold of Ed at FlowTech Induction as he is the owner, and is an excellent resource. Could also ask over at http://corral.net as they are more familiar with hydraulic roller type setups.

Good Luck
Which is what I thought, but then I had some people strongly state that a steel camshaft requires a steel thrust plate. I am like wth. As far as I know I don't believe ford made a steel cam thrust plate. Looking in my 80 - 89 parts and illustration guide for F series trucks and vans it provided me with a part number listed as '85 and up for the 302 which happens to have a C5 prefix on the part number. That's what also had me scratching my head why would the '85 and up 302`s use a thrust plate with a C5 prefix while the 80 - 84 used the C9 prefix. Only visual difference I see is the C9 has the extra ears that Comp double roller timing sets state you may have to remove them on some 351w`s and the one I got doesn't have said ears.

I figured I don't really need the ears to hold the oil galley cup plugs in as added assurance as who I am getting my 306 short block from, Creb Engineering stated they tap and plug the galleys which is what I prefer anyways.

For now it seems like what I have will probably work fine, timing set the cam gear itself is induction hardened cast iron which I don't think would be harder than regular cast iron. But I did shoot Comp a tech question on this as well. I rather spend another $60 and get the steel thrust plate if I truly need that vs using what I already have and then have to deal with accelerated engine wear.

I am too deep in this now money wise to worry about $100 here or there if what I have is not correct.
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post #7 of 8 (permalink) Old Today, 11:30 AM
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Re: 302 Cam thrust plate difference

Rusty,
I've run solid rollers , both cast steel ( yes they used to be) and 8620 billet since the '60s . The factory C5OZ cast iron thrust plate has been fine for all applications where I ran a cast iron timing gear . When I tried the Motorsport "belt" drives , the cam gear is billet and I used either the Ford steel plate or an after market needle bearing part. There was NO difference in power or reliability on either plate. On a Ford there is no cam "thrust" so to speak and in reality the "thrust plate" is more of a cam retainer plate. There is a slight load placed on the cam gear against the thrust plate from the distributor driving the oil pump.
Randy

Experimental Ford parts collector.
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post #8 of 8 (permalink) Old Today, 11:36 AM Thread Starter
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Re: 302 Cam thrust plate difference

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Originally Posted by GT350HR View Post
Rusty,
I've run solid rollers , both cast steel ( yes they used to be) and 8620 billet since the '60s . The factory C5OZ cast iron thrust plate has been fine for all applications where I ran a cast iron timing gear . When I tried the Motorsport "belt" drives , the cam gear is billet and I used either the Ford steel plate or an after market needle bearing part. There was NO difference in power or reliability on either plate. On a Ford there is no cam "thrust" so to speak and in reality the "thrust plate" is more of a cam retainer plate. There is a slight load placed on the cam gear against the thrust plate from the distributor driving the oil pump.
Randy
Thanks for the reply. I already have a NOS C50Z-6269-D plate, just second guessing myself, I don't want to have to tear into this motor in 5 years. I hope to get 10 years of use before I have to start tearing into the engine to start replacing components on the inside such as timing sets and thrust plates.
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