Dennis111 more Toploader questions - Page 3 - Ford Muscle Forums : Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #31 of 56 (permalink) Old 02-11-2011, 08:23 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Orting, Washington
Posts: 1,141
Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions

Dennis,
I took the detent out between the 1/2 and 3/4 shift rails, at that point it will shift into all gears fine. When the detent is reinstalled I can not put
the trans into any forward gear. The only thing I can figure is the detent that goes between the 2 rails must be shorter than the others? All of the detents I have are the conical type, I didn't get any of the hatchet type with the trans when I bought it.

I will pull it apart and measure the detents this weekend.

The kit I bought from David Kee came with plastic thrust
washers for the main counter shaft gear and the reverse idler gear.
Are the plastic washers ok?

Thanks,
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	1.jpg
Views:	694
Size:	219.8 KB
ID:	16672   Click image for larger version

Name:	2.jpg
Views:	909
Size:	200.7 KB
ID:	16673   Click image for larger version

Name:	3.jpg
Views:	724
Size:	211.4 KB
ID:	16674  

Click image for larger version

Name:	4.jpg
Views:	447
Size:	209.2 KB
ID:	16675   Click image for larger version

Name:	5.jpg
Views:	1273
Size:	202.5 KB
ID:	16676  
McCutcheon4 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 56 (permalink) Old 02-12-2011, 05:36 AM
Tech Contributor Gold
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Amish Wonderland Of Central PA
Posts: 4,910
Garage
Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions

Cool that you have an old Doug Nash case. They were one of the first performance builders of toploaders.

I think that we are onto something now.

From what I see of the 3/4 shift rail in your photos, you have the early type rails that I show here (same pic from above):



The early type uses 2 hatchet type pins, 3 dome type pins (not blunts), and an extra long interlock pin.

A closeup of the 3/4 shift rail and pins of the hatchet set:



A similar closeup of a 70' set which uses 5 of the same blunt pins:



Notice that the later shift rail does not have the deep neutral groove. I found a 68/69 set to be similar.

I compared the early style to some other year parts and discovered the hatchets are approximately .030" shorter than the blunt/domed when compared to the 68/69 or the 70 style.

Due to the .030 difference in the pins, I believe that if you get the correct parts (at least the 2 hatchets and the appropriate length interlock pin) you will be good to go.

IF the interlock pin you have is the long one, you might try removing it and then install all the other parts and see if it shifts. If so, my thoughts are that maybe a shorter interlock pin "might" get you by. Still the proper and complete early style would be more desirable and will last longer due to a larger contact patch.

Since you can measure what you have, here are some pics with measurements of the early style:

Hatchet:



Interlock pin:



Notch in 3/4 shift rail:



IIRC, The notch in the later styles were off by only a few thousands.

Interlock pins--early on left, 70' on right:



As far as the nylon bushings, there is nothing wrong with using them and they may even be preferred. The idea behind either the copper based ones or the nylon ones is that they can absorb metal particles which helps prevent those particles from interfering with the roller bearings or other parts of the toploader.

Dennis

65' Stang Street/Strip. Dart 434W NA, Victor heads, G101A 4 Spd, 4:56 rear gear, on 93 octane pushing 3550lbs. [email protected]

Last edited by dennis111; 02-12-2011 at 05:51 AM.
dennis111 is offline  
post #33 of 56 (permalink) Old 02-12-2011, 08:38 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Orting, Washington
Posts: 1,141
Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions

Dennis,
I think with your help I am begining to understand the shift rail differences much better.

My trans came with this combination of detents and interlock.
http://www.davidkeetoploaders.com/type2.htm

I went out measure everything this morning but the battery in my calipers had died.

I will get the parts measured and get those dims posted.

Thanks for your help,
Gregg

Last edited by McCutcheon4; 02-12-2011 at 08:42 AM.
McCutcheon4 is offline  
 
post #34 of 56 (permalink) Old 02-12-2011, 09:23 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Orting, Washington
Posts: 1,141
Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions

Dennis,
I think with your help I am begining to understand the shift rail differences much better.

I went out measure everything this morning but the battery in my calipers had died.

I will get the parts measured and get those dims posted.

Thanks for your help,
Gregg
McCutcheon4 is offline  
post #35 of 56 (permalink) Old 02-13-2011, 05:26 AM
Tech Contributor Gold
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Amish Wonderland Of Central PA
Posts: 4,910
Garage
Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by MCCUTCHEON4 View Post
Dennis,
I think with your help I am begining to understand the shift rail differences much better.

My trans came with this combination of detents and interlock.
Type 2

I went out measure everything this morning but the battery in my calipers had died.

I will get the parts measured and get those dims posted.

Thanks for your help,
Gregg
Those parts do look like a matching combination and all the detents would be the same. Only the early combo that I show (type 1 from 65') use 2 different detents. Your blunt type should have 5 identical length detents. I have not used that specific combo recently.

I am now wondering if the shift rail notches are actually fully aligned in the neutral positions when you try to shift. The "unused" detents need to tuck inside the notches in order for the desired rail to move. The combination of detents and the interlock pin will prevent shifting into 2 gears at the same time.

Another thought. I find that sometimes the brass blockers will firmly grab the gear while test fitting on the bench and need apart from it in order to spin into position. This will prevent the slider from moving over the blocker and gear.

Dennis

65' Stang Street/Strip. Dart 434W NA, Victor heads, G101A 4 Spd, 4:56 rear gear, on 93 octane pushing 3550lbs. [email protected]

Last edited by dennis111; 02-13-2011 at 05:30 AM.
dennis111 is offline  
post #36 of 56 (permalink) Old 02-13-2011, 08:14 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Orting, Washington
Posts: 1,141
Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions

The latest.

There is a fifth detent that measures .428 not shown.

I thought I had figured out the problem when I found the short detent.

The short detent was installed between the reverse rail and the 3/4 rail.

I decided to move it between the 3/4 and 1/2 rails, but after putting one of the longer ones on top of reverse I could not slide the 3/4 rail in.

The reverse shift cam is the long one correct?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	detents 1.jpg
Views:	780
Size:	190.1 KB
ID:	16697  
McCutcheon4 is offline  
post #37 of 56 (permalink) Old 02-13-2011, 08:23 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Orting, Washington
Posts: 1,141
Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions

[QUOTE]
I am now wondering if the shift rail notches are actually fully aligned in the neutral positions when you try to shift. The "unused" detents need to tuck inside the notches in order for the desired rail to move. The combination of detents and the interlock pin will prevent shifting into 2 gears at the same time. [QUOTE]

I think I need to look at this closer, it seemed as though the detents were
falling in their proper notches but I did notice the 3/4 fork was not tightening up properly so I may have that rail out of synch.
McCutcheon4 is offline  
post #38 of 56 (permalink) Old 02-14-2011, 03:11 AM
Tech Contributor Gold
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Amish Wonderland Of Central PA
Posts: 4,910
Garage
Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by MCCUTCHEON4 View Post
The latest.

There is a fifth detent that measures .428 not shown.

I thought I had figured out the problem when I found the short detent.

The short detent was installed between the reverse rail and the 3/4 rail.

I decided to move it between the 3/4 and 1/2 rails, but after putting one of the longer ones on top of reverse I could not slide the 3/4 rail in.

The reverse shift cam is the long one correct?
I'm really confused now. I can't even guess where a single short detent would go if it came from the factory that way. If it was a pair, I would put them between the 3 shift rails. The other 3 would located under reverse, on the top of all the rails, and under the bolt under the case. Something is wrong with your parts or, quite probably, you need to get some professional help--for that I would call Dan Williams and explain the predicament.

I do agree that if I had 1 odd detent I would probably try it under the reverse rail. Also check on that shift fork and make sure that the set screw is engaged fully in the hole. As I said before, the notches have to be in alignment for the detents to be able to "get out of the way" in order to shift.

What is the length of the interlock pin? Wondering if it is the long or the short pin as shown above. . . . . The short pin would use the long detents and the long pin would use the short detents.

Dennis

65' Stang Street/Strip. Dart 434W NA, Victor heads, G101A 4 Spd, 4:56 rear gear, on 93 octane pushing 3550lbs. [email protected]
dennis111 is offline  
post #39 of 56 (permalink) Old 02-17-2011, 12:41 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 398
Re: For Dennis111 / 112

Quote:
Originally Posted by MCCUTCHEON4 View Post
Dennis,
Do you know much about the three piece moduler input gear that
Dan Williams sells? There is a description of if on his site but no pictures.




MC4
Dan Williams told me his stuff wont break...I ran that input in my toploader.. after breaking two liberty big spline inputs I went with the modular setup, had liberty weld a dog ring to a spare syncro ring and was able to keep the proshift, wide ratio, big spline setup.. never had an issue after that. and if it did hurt a part it would be a simple parts swap and not a whole new cut, welded, modified stock piece...liberty had to take two input shafts to make one and would take forever, but how else back then could you get a wide ratio, small block, big spline input. Nash did the same things, they had even steeper first gear ratio's, crazy stuff...I had to keep one as a spare and a stock one in case I needed to go back syncro shifting .... someone at one time even had a 26 spline input conversion so you could keep the stock t-bearing and tube but have a stronger input shaft, even stronger than the big spline, but that place went out in the 90's.. a chevy clutch disc is way easier to find than a big spline ford...

1965 mustang fastback
1999 mustang GT
1966 mustang coupe
fastback.brian is offline  
post #40 of 56 (permalink) Old 07-28-2018, 02:52 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: France South West
Posts: 10
Garage
Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions

Hello,

Could you please give me the diameter and lenght of the two interlock pins?
I rebuild my tranny and find out that no interlock pin is there.

I check on David Kee site but can't tell which one it should be. The tranny is from a '73 Mexican Sprint Mach 1, and when I look the rail kit it's not the 71/73 one I have, but 69 or 70, rail kit 4 or 5.

Shift Rail ID

Thank you,

Manu
Manu is offline  
post #41 of 56 (permalink) Old 07-28-2018, 03:54 AM
Tech Contributor Gold
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Amish Wonderland Of Central PA
Posts: 4,910
Garage
Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manu View Post
Hello,

Could you please give me the diameter and lenght of the two interlock pins?
I rebuild my tranny and find out that no interlock pin is there.

I check on David Kee site but can't tell which one it should be. The tranny is from a '73 Mexican Sprint Mach 1, and when I look the rail kit it's not the 71/73 one I have, but 69 or 70, rail kit 4 or 5.

Shift Rail ID

Thank you,

Manu

Not uncommon for Mexican built Mustangs to use left over stuff from previous years. They were not built to meet the U.S. specifications or market.



I will look today to see if I still have a set of 69/70 rails and detents.



It would help me ID the detents that you need if you can post a photo of what you already have.

Dennis

65' Stang Street/Strip. Dart 434W NA, Victor heads, G101A 4 Spd, 4:56 rear gear, on 93 octane pushing 3550lbs. [email protected]
dennis111 is offline  
post #42 of 56 (permalink) Old 07-28-2018, 05:13 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: France South West
Posts: 10
Garage
Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions

Hello Dennis,

Thanks for this quick answer!!!
With what you wrote I fill more confortable "Not uncommon for Mexican built Mustangs to use left over stuff from previous years", I was afraid to be stuck up with the tranny.

Here are a few pics hope that can help you to find out.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20180728_134942.jpg
Views:	104
Size:	203.1 KB
ID:	155083   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20180728_134937.jpg
Views:	103
Size:	209.3 KB
ID:	155085   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20180728_134948.jpg
Views:	90
Size:	198.7 KB
ID:	155087  

Manu is offline  
post #43 of 56 (permalink) Old 07-28-2018, 06:15 AM
Tech Contributor Gold
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Amish Wonderland Of Central PA
Posts: 4,910
Garage
Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions

The pic helps a lot. I'll see what I can dig up today.


FYI, the parts you have ARE COMMON toploader parts, just for an earlier year than what would normally be in a U.S. 73. You should be fine once we determine which style detent you need. If nothing else, you can swap the rails and detents from any earlier transmission as long as they are a matched set.



It may have left the factory with a 73' toploader and someone swapped it out in the past due to damage. Any Mustang toploader from late 65-73 would bolt right in.


Out of curiosity, can you post a photo of the little tag that might still be riveted to the front passenger side of the main case and maybe the casting # found cast in the same case?

Dennis

65' Stang Street/Strip. Dart 434W NA, Victor heads, G101A 4 Spd, 4:56 rear gear, on 93 octane pushing 3550lbs. [email protected]
dennis111 is offline  
post #44 of 56 (permalink) Old 07-28-2018, 09:25 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: France South West
Posts: 10
Garage
Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions

I found some numbers on the main case and the tail housing as well.
That's all what I have...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20180728_180604.jpg
Views:	64
Size:	223.0 KB
ID:	155089   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20180728_180611.jpg
Views:	71
Size:	212.2 KB
ID:	155091   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20180728_180637.jpg
Views:	75
Size:	212.1 KB
ID:	155093  

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20180728_180709.jpg
Views:	59
Size:	221.1 KB
ID:	155095   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20180721_121611.jpg
Views:	62
Size:	196.5 KB
ID:	155099   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20180721_121621.jpg
Views:	45
Size:	207.5 KB
ID:	155101  

Manu is offline  
post #45 of 56 (permalink) Old 07-28-2018, 04:41 PM
Tech Contributor Gold
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Amish Wonderland Of Central PA
Posts: 4,910
Garage
Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manu View Post
I found some numbers on the main case and the tail housing as well.
That's all what I have...

That is some pretty cool stuff that I have never seen before. Thank you for the photos. Does your car have a 351w motor? Again just curious.

Dennis

65' Stang Street/Strip. Dart 434W NA, Victor heads, G101A 4 Spd, 4:56 rear gear, on 93 octane pushing 3550lbs. [email protected]
dennis111 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Ford Muscle Forums : Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dennis111 doogie Mustang Pages (1965-1973) 1 07-17-2008 04:49 AM
Some more questions, this time about the 4-speed toploader shiftless Mustang Pages (1965-1973) 5 10-22-2006 09:34 PM
Toploader - to - C4 Swap questions ?? mlanden C4 Transmissions 1 09-16-2005 03:53 AM
toploader Questions tonyD All Ford Techboard 0 04-08-2004 07:41 PM
Toploader questions Luv70sFords All Ford Techboard 1 08-04-2002 06:23 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome