Dennis111 more Toploader questions - Ford Muscle Forums : Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum
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post #1 of 56 (permalink) Old 02-21-2010, 11:26 AM Thread Starter
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Dennis111 more Toploader questions

I found a 1-3/8 input, 31 spline out with the 17" extension housing.
I have not seen it in person yet and don't have the tag number but the guy that has it is a well know local Ford guy so I believe he is giving me the correct dimensions.


It has a broken mounting ear so I will need to replace the case, do you think it's worth $600.00?

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post #2 of 56 (permalink) Old 02-21-2010, 11:55 AM
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Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions

the ear can be welded back that seems to be a common problem with the top loaders.$600.00??? have you checked out the working gutts of the trans(removed the top cover).1 3/8 splines were the trans used behind the hipo engines 427/428 cjsetc....came in both close \/wide ratios.a lot of times the ears break because the bell housing has not been dialed in.check for metal in the gear oil.it could be an abused trans???? good luck
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post #3 of 56 (permalink) Old 02-21-2010, 12:19 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions

I have not seen it in person yet. I have seen several in this configuration, they are usually priced from $1200 up to $2500 in good or so called rebuilt condition, which I never trust.


I looked at buying the individual parts to convert a 1-1/16 input/14" 28 spline output that I have but that was much to costly. This one became available last weekend, I need to get a look at it.

The cases must be cast steel then? I assumed they were cast iron.

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post #4 of 56 (permalink) Old 02-21-2010, 01:29 PM
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Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions

Yes the ear can be welded on or a case can often be procured from ebay. I scored a mint one from WA not to long ago for $100. Just be sure that the case is a late 65-73 wide eared version. All these cases are interchangeable with only minor differences in the shift rails. A late 65 case is shown on the right:



All Ford big block toploaders were close ratio. Luckily the aftermarket has helped us out in that respect. It takes a different input shaft, 2nd gear, 3rd gear and a cluster to convert to a wide ratio. By the way, the BB input shaft isn't directly compatible with your SB motor.



$600 wouldn't be a bad price, except for the ear and the close vs wide ratio conversion issues. You really wouldn't get much value from though when you include all the changes needed. What ratio do you have now?

Unless you are going to get heavy into drag racing, I really wouldn't sweat going the BB route if I were you. The good SB toploader is as tough as nails and will handle 600hp on the street with no problem.

Dennis

65' Stang Street/Strip. Dart 434W NA, Victor heads, G101A 4 Spd, 4:56 rear gear, on 93 octane pushing 3550lbs. [email protected]

Last edited by dennis111; 02-21-2010 at 03:57 PM.
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post #5 of 56 (permalink) Old 02-21-2010, 06:34 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by dennis111 View Post

All Ford big block toploaders were close ratio. Luckily the aftermarket has helped us out in that respect. It takes a different input shaft, 2nd gear, 3rd gear and a cluster to convert to a wide ratio. By the way, the BB input shaft isn't directly compatible with your SB motor.



What ratio do you have now?

Unless you are going to get heavy into drag racing, I really wouldn't sweat going the BB route if I were you. The good SB toploader is as tough as nails and will handle 600hp on the street with no problem.

Dennis,
I was unaware of the input shaft length difference! Thanks.
I do intend to run a 390 in this Galaxie, at least until the correct 428 deal comes along.

The TL I have now is a RUG-C1 from a 1967 390 Ranchero. David Kee's
ID Chart says it's a close ratio trans.
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post #6 of 56 (permalink) Old 02-22-2010, 02:46 AM
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Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by MCCUTCHEON4 View Post
Dennis,
I was unaware of the input shaft length difference! Thanks.
I do intend to run a 390 in this Galaxie, at least until the correct 428 deal comes along.

The TL I have now is a RUG-C1 from a 1967 390 Ranchero. David Kee's
ID Chart says it's a close ratio trans.
I didn't know that you were building this for a 390. A factory 390 used the small 1 1/16" diameter, short snout input shaft that I posted in the pic.

The BB tranny you found would almost be a decent match (although I like a wide ratio better.) Doesn't the Galaxie use the longer output shaft and tailhousing? A David Kee search regarding the tailshaft should give you a clue.

Other than that, with the 390 you would have to use a 1 3/8" 428 type clutch disk, but probably in the smaller 11" diameter that will match a normal 390 flywheel if you already have one. You would also need the BB fork.

Dennis

65' Stang Street/Strip. Dart 434W NA, Victor heads, G101A 4 Spd, 4:56 rear gear, on 93 octane pushing 3550lbs. [email protected]
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post #7 of 56 (permalink) Old 02-22-2010, 07:30 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by dennis111 View Post
I didn't know that you were building this for a 390. A factory 390 used the small 1 1/16" diameter, short snout input shaft that I posted in the pic. .
Yeah, , my son wanted to switch to a manual trans in our SBF powered drag car but I do the bulk of the wrenching and have two other car projects so that's not an option. This trans is for an old Galaxie I've been toating around since 1975
Quote:
Originally Posted by dennis111 View Post
The BB tranny you found would almost be a decent match (although I like a wide ratio better.) Doesn't the Galaxie use the longer output shaft and tailhousing? A David Kee search regarding the tailshaft should give you a clue. .
The transmission I have found has thar 17" extension housing and is 31 spline
which will be correct for the Galaxie and the reason I interested in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dennis111 View Post
Other than that, with the 390 you would have to use a 1 3/8" 428 type clutch disk, but probably in the smaller 11" diameter that will match a normal 390 flywheel if you already have one. You would also need the BB fork.
You saved me here again, It makes sense that the fork would be bigger but I
was not aware of that, I guess I would have found out the hard way.

Thanks for the information, I will have a better idea of what I'm looking at
when I go check this transmissin out, it's about an hour drive from my home, so maybe next weekend I will get out there. If I do buy it I will have questions. I hope the guy has a clutch fork!

Thank you again,
Gregg
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post #8 of 56 (permalink) Old 02-23-2010, 06:54 PM
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Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by MCCUTCHEON4 View Post
I have not seen it in person yet. I have seen several in this configuration, they are usually priced from $1200 up to $2500 in good or so called rebuilt condition, which I never trust.


I looked at buying the individual parts to convert a 1-1/16 input/14" 28 spline output that I have but that was much to costly. This one became available last weekend, I need to get a look at it.

The cases must be cast steel then? I assumed they were cast iron.
All hope is not lost, David Kee can configure you an all new toploader, how YOU want it; i.e. big in/big long/short tailshaft for around $2K.

68 Torino GT FB 351W 4spd
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post #9 of 56 (permalink) Old 04-03-2010, 06:52 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions

Dennis,
I bought the big in and out Toploader, I'll have lots of questions as it was completely disassembled. I still have the small input Toploader which is complete so that will be good for a visual guide.

I'm leaning toward just finding another case versus welding an ear on this one.

Your bottom loader case carnage was an eye opener...Wow!

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post #10 of 56 (permalink) Old 04-04-2010, 06:03 AM
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Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions

Congrats on your purchase.

A toploader needs to be reassembled in an orderly fashion. The shift rails/forks make them a little more challenging to rebuild and that is why racers started to shun them way back when the aftermarket trannys arrived on the scene.

Plan on taking pics of your build as that will be the best way to get your point across.

Dennis

65' Stang Street/Strip. Dart 434W NA, Victor heads, G101A 4 Spd, 4:56 rear gear, on 93 octane pushing 3550lbs. [email protected]

Last edited by dennis111; 04-04-2010 at 06:07 AM.
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post #11 of 56 (permalink) Old 04-04-2010, 03:55 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions

I always struggle with loading pictures up to F/M.

Dennis,
This is the starting point. When I find a case for a reasonable price I am going to dive in!

The 390 has been shelved, I'm now going with the 428 in the pictures.
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post #12 of 56 (permalink) Old 04-04-2010, 04:25 PM
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Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions



I am confused--is this supposed to be a pic of the small block tranny? The reason I ask is that it has the missing ear that the other case is missing. Looks to be from a 390. How many toploaders do you have????

65-73 cases are interchangeable but stay away from any that do not have the 8 tranny-to-bellhousing mounting holes in the front like yours had. The early cases are easy to recognize as in the pics I showed earlier. You should also be aware that are cases that look similar but have only 4 mounting holes. They are from the late 70's overdrive toploaders and the guts are not directly interchangeable.

Planning on using that V-gate with something?

428--YUM!

Dennis

65' Stang Street/Strip. Dart 434W NA, Victor heads, G101A 4 Spd, 4:56 rear gear, on 93 octane pushing 3550lbs. [email protected]

Last edited by dennis111; 04-04-2010 at 04:38 PM.
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post #13 of 56 (permalink) Old 04-04-2010, 07:37 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions

D111,
Sorry for the confusion, I dropped a picture of the complete BB Fairlane Toploader I have in there also. I have 2 Toploaders currently, the BB Fairlane and the Big in & out T/L that I just purchased that is apart.

The V-gate is Mr Gasket (junk) not Hurst. Swap meet parts.

I looked for the close ratio versus the wide ratio specs for 1st and 2nd gear but didn't find it. I want to run a 3.25 rear gear in this car so I want a low 1st.

I bet you have those ratios memoized?

428 yes!

I noticed you are looking for a wide ratio cluster, what should a guy pay for these? I've seen several on Ebay.FORD TOPLOADER WIDE RATIO CLUSTER GEAR - ORIG : eBay Motors (item 390056802265 end time Apr-28-10 12:01:01 PDT)

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post #14 of 56 (permalink) Old 04-05-2010, 02:47 AM
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Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions

I just go to the David Kee site (Great resource) when I get confused looking at gears. The tooth count is found on the bottom of the torque spec page:

Torque Specs and Gear Ratios

My ad on FM scored a cluster gear from 68Fastang. No one else stepped up with an offer.

Cluster gears come up kind of regularly on Ebay and the prices vary. When I wasn't looking for them the time would run out and they didn't sell for $45. Anyways I can get great ones almost any day in the $100 range from Mark at toploader heaven. I am sure that Dan Williams (probably the the most knowledgeable Toploader enthusiast) would have them too. David Kee might also be a source of Used parts, although I do not know.

Be cautious getting used gears as they can be noisy at times. I normally do not have problems with good appearing clusters but would never buy the other gears used mostly due to the sychro teeth being bashed over the years.

Anyway, if you are in the market, here is a better priced ebay listing than the one you have given: FORD 4 SPEED TOPLOADER TRANSMISSION CLUSTER GEAR : eBay Motors (item 390053496521 end time Apr-15-10 08:02:09 PDT)

Dennis

65' Stang Street/Strip. Dart 434W NA, Victor heads, G101A 4 Spd, 4:56 rear gear, on 93 octane pushing 3550lbs. [email protected]
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post #15 of 56 (permalink) Old 04-06-2010, 10:25 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Dennis111 more Toploader questions

Waiting for it to arrive.
I need the input and two other gears correct?

I hope to score a case this weekend.
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