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post #16 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-13-2013, 02:33 PM
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Re: Dyno run question

Yeah, the rev limiter is low, as that cam should go over 6000. I agree about the exhaust, and do at least replace the section from the headers to the mufflers with 3" and use good 3" internal mufflers. Many mufflers neck-down inside to a smaller size than the inlet, so check that. If you want to prove if it's an issue before throwing time and money at it, do pulls with open headers as a baseline. The sheets should also show it flatten or nose-over from choking.

Keep in-mind, the dyno numbers that come with most engines are for dyno HP, meaning no air filter, a ram stack, open headers and cooler water, etc. So, you can expect lower HP just from your install. Again, chassis dyno HP should not be used as a benchmark, but a relative gauge. Just lowering or raising your tire pressure can lose or gain you 20 hp. Not saying your numbers are good, and you need some stuff changed, but keep it relative until you can get to the track for some real performance measurements.

David

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post #17 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-13-2013, 02:41 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Dyno run question

I haven't found a shop with a mandrel bender in rural East Texas, and I have read how difficult it is to get anything over 2 1/2 over the rear axle on a 67 Galaxie. I think the Magnaflows are 3" mufflers. I can have the header to muffler section changed to 3". How much will that really help.

Don
1967 Galaxie 2DHT w/460
Chopped to make a rag top
1972 F100
2013 F150 Platinum
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post #18 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-13-2013, 06:13 PM
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Re: Dyno run question

Quote:
Originally Posted by donwhis View Post
I haven't found a shop with a mandrel bender in rural East Texas, and I have read how difficult it is to get anything over 2 1/2 over the rear axle on a 67 Galaxie. I think the Magnaflows are 3" mufflers. I can have the header to muffler section changed to 3". How much will that really help.
99.9% of muffler shops do not use mandrel benders. Most people purchase mandrel bent systems made to go on their model car, or fabricate mandrel bent exhaust systems from welded together pipe for cars that kits aren't available.

If a kit isn't available for you car, Summit sells universal mandrel bent kits that can be made to work.

If you're on a budget, you can run muffler shop bends back to the mufflers, as those aren't tight bends, and then fabricate some mandrel bent tail pipes.

The Summit kits are probably a good place to start.

Good Luck!
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post #19 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-13-2013, 09:01 PM
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Re: Dyno run question

If you're not in a rush, go to Columbia River Mandrel Bending and get on their B-stock list of clearance and blemished stuff. Cheap. Even the "oops" bends are fine for fabbing and fully usable. Use an old tailpipe to plan your angles, and order what you can off the cheap list.

David

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post #20 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-14-2013, 02:09 AM
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Re: Dyno run question

Likewise to what David offered, I get my mandrel bent pipe from these guys:

Mandrel Bending Solutions Home Page

Custom single bends are the same price as standard stocked items-and them bend them in-house. Bends are usually sent out the next day in a sturdy box.

Dennis

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post #21 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-14-2013, 07:56 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Dyno run question

I have to give this some thought, my Magnaflows #11256 are 2.5" in and out. Not sure I want to spend another $200 on mufflers plus the piping to go to 3". I guess 2.5" is better than 2" but not as good as 3". Hopefully I can post the dyno chart tomorrow and see what other advice I get. I am wanting to improve what I get from my motor but being on a budget I need to consider ALL options for improvement. I need better exhaust flow, got it!

Don
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Chopped to make a rag top
1972 F100
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post #22 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-14-2013, 07:44 PM
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Re: Dyno run question

Posted an inquiry about a mandrel bent exhaust for a 1967 Galaxie on the 332-428 Ford FE Engine Forum message board, and got some really cool responses!

332-428 Ford FE Engine Forum: 1967 Galaxie Mandrel Bent Exhaust?

Looks like GM A-body tail pipes work just fine on the 65-67 galaxies! These are mandrel bent 2-1/2" units, which should be just fine... and a MAJOR improvement over what you've got... plus, they are only $129 for the pair from Summit, which is a killer deal. You could let the muffler shop run pipe back to them, as there shouldn't be too many tight bends.

If I were on a budget, I'd run either 3" or 2-1/2" back to the mufflers, then run these over the axles. Really, as long as the front part of the exhaust is fairly straight, 2-1/2" all the way back should be fine.

Good Luck!
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post #23 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-15-2013, 08:51 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Dyno run question

Here is the dyno chart, what is it telling me?
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Don
1967 Galaxie 2DHT w/460
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1972 F100
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post #24 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-15-2013, 08:55 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Dyno run question

Same chart but turned so you can view it better.
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Don
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1972 F100
2013 F150 Platinum
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post #25 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-15-2013, 11:10 AM
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Re: Dyno run question

My first reaction to your sheet is that it's just another engine that needs tuning, with emphasis on ignition. However, that assumes everything is right and it just needs attention. In this case, the toque curve peaks shallow and never gives the HP a chance to build with RPM. Your HP should peak above 5000 rather than fall-off, based on your TQ peak. Again, my reaction would be tuning, with a bit of leaning on fuel and some sweeps for timing. However, the lack of HP build with RPM in an unknown combo could also be any restriction that is holding the breathing back.

This could be a carb restriction (not opening fully, too small, choke plate not open, secondary opening wrong or failed, etc.), or poorly matched intake (type, port mis-match, wrong gaskets, etc.), or exhaust flow (restrictive headers, wrong gaskets, lumpy internal welds, poor exhaust system, etc.), or finally poor breathing through incorrect or mis-matched valve timing. That's a lot to consider, but is the 'whole package' concept to getting full performance.

If this were a car that just rolled-up out of the blue and the driver complained of less performance than expected, I would first check everything visually for obvious issues (as far as possible), as listed above. Then I would do a basic tune check for acceptable fuel control, WOT ignition timing, temps, blow-by indications, etc., just to get a baseline. What I learned along that path would tell me more about where issues would be and where to focus attention. So, that's what I would suggest to you - overall systems checks followed by basic tuning and analyze the results for clues to the next step.

David

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post #26 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-15-2013, 12:25 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Dyno run question

Thanks PSIG for the patience to explain these things, you have given me a lot to think about and things I need to learn how to do.

I got the big picture on the exhaust and I think I know what needs to be done even though I am stuck at 2 1/2" from the muffler back.

I need to learn a lot on checking and adjusting the carb.

I can use a timing light, but am not familiar with tuning with timing.

What are blow back indications?

What do you mean by temps, related to timing?

Don
1967 Galaxie 2DHT w/460
Chopped to make a rag top
1972 F100
2013 F150 Platinum
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post #27 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-15-2013, 03:14 PM
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Re: Dyno run question

Quote:
Originally Posted by donwhis View Post
I need to learn a lot on checking and adjusting the carb.

I can use a timing light, but am not familiar with tuning with timing.

What are blow back indications?

What do you mean by temps, related to timing?
Actually, the carb is first inspected for full opening at pedal WOT, float level and fuel pressure. Adjusting the carb begins fairly easy by leaning the jets a couple steps. Then you need to adjust your secondary vacuum opening using Holley guidelines. Check results on the next pull. At least you will be closer and ready for dyno "tweaking". Cruise, power valve, idle and accel pump adjustments can be done on the road later.

Ignition timing will begin with WOT or "all-in" timing. If this was not tested on the dyno, then you can either wait for your next session, or get it close on the street first. Normally, this is done on the dyno or track where power or best MPH indicates best timing. If on the street, a data logger or video is often used to get accurate acceleration times from __ MPH to __ MPH or __ RPM to __ RPM.

Set your timing a bit low - say 30 degrees total. Get on the highway, and (safely) decel to the bottom of a gear that will let you accel in that gear to redline without blasting past the speed limit. Usually 2nd gear. Do a run through the gear and note time. Repeat to check consistency. Pull over and bump the timing 4 degrees and do it again. When the runs show no improvement, back-off 2 and test. If no change, back-off another 2 and test. You should end-up where you have best accel times with minimum timing.

Blow-by indications are simply looking for signs of excess blow-by out your breather or oil dipstick tube. Assuming it was broken-in properly, this signifies poor ring sealing, ring damage, or other issue. Not only can this lose power, but worse, it allows oil into the chambers which causes detonation much sooner under load. This can be a limitation to tuning, though a much larger concern with boost or nitrous.

The spark plug temperatures (plug reading) are an indicator of tuning and what the engine wants. No matter what you think it should be, the engine leaves signs whether it is happy or not. Plug temperature (the electrode for timing and the base of the insulator for fuel) tell you if you are giving the engine what it wants. The plugs will show the conditions it was shut-off at, so if testing WOT, then do a shutdown from WOT without idling or driving at other throttle settings. Plug reading is usually done along with the timing runs.

It seems a lot to take-in, but learn and do one task at a time, and you'll get the hang of it. The dyno guys should be familiar with all of this and more. They should be able to answer your questions as you go. While dyno time and tuning time are charged separately, if doing your own tuning, the operator will usually be helpful if you are doing the work.

David

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post #28 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-15-2013, 07:41 PM
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Re: Dyno run question

Get the exhaust done first before doing any more tuning. The exhaust is SO restrictive on that application, that if you try and tune it now, it will need tuned all over again after the exhaust is put on.

The horsepower is leveling off because the exhaust system can't properly ventilate the cylinders, so it just hits a wall. (this is assuming everything else is working properly, and you don't have multiple things to deal with)

Check the easy things like making sure you're getting full throttle, but make the exhaust a priority. Muffler shop 2.5" back to see-through mufflers like Walker Dynomax or Magnaflows... and the 2.5" mandrel bent tails like linked above, should make a huge improvement.

Good Luck!
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post #29 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-16-2013, 07:24 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Dyno run question

Question on muffler.

I currently have Magnaflow #11256 which is an oval 4" by 9" , offset in/out and 2.5" in and out. Should I change the mufflers when I go to 2.5" pipes or, are these mufflers OK. If I should change what recommendations are there for model #?

Don
1967 Galaxie 2DHT w/460
Chopped to make a rag top
1972 F100
2013 F150 Platinum
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post #30 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-16-2013, 09:01 AM
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Re: Dyno run question

Quote:
Originally Posted by donwhis View Post
Question on muffler.

I currently have Magnaflow #11256 which is an oval 4" by 9" , offset in/out and 2.5" in and out. Should I change the mufflers when I go to 2.5" pipes or, are these mufflers OK. If I should change what recommendations are there for model #?
The larger/longer an absorption muffler is, the quieter it will be. Yours sound pretty short. If you don't mind how loud it is, they should be fine. If you want it to be quieter, then you'll want to get some larger, longer mufflers.

One other thing... Magnaflow has had some bad press lately on their offset mufflers. It seems some of them, their perforated cores have crimped bends. If yours are smooth, then they should be fine. Their product seems to have been cheapened... probably by their advertising budget, which is immense! The Walker Dynomax is pretty much the exact same muffler, with a more robust construction, without the kinked perforated tubing on the core. If you buy new mufflers, you may want to consider the Dynomax.

Good Luck!
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