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post #31 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-16-2013, 10:44 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Dyno run question

The 4x9 is 4" thick and 9" wide. The magnaflow is 18" long not counting the in/out tubes.

I would like to stay with them since they are paid for, but not if it is going to cost 25 HP. The muffler back GM A body mandrel pipes are $129 and probably another $150 -$200 labor and misc tubing/hangers/etc. New mufflers are $140 to $180 for the set. If it is not a big performance drag I can save the money for mufflers for other work that will need to be done. What do you think, can I reuse the mufflers or should I fork over the money for new ones?

Don
1967 Galaxie 2DHT w/460
Chopped to make a rag top
1972 F100
2013 F150 Platinum
2007 Jeep Commander (wife)
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post #32 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-16-2013, 12:40 PM
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Re: Dyno run question

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Originally Posted by donwhis View Post
The 4x9 is 4" thick and 9" wide. The magnaflow is 18" long not counting the in/out tubes.

I would like to stay with them since they are paid for, but not if it is going to cost 25 HP. The muffler back GM A body mandrel pipes are $129 and probably another $150 -$200 labor and misc tubing/hangers/etc. New mufflers are $140 to $180 for the set. If it is not a big performance drag I can save the money for mufflers for other work that will need to be done. What do you think, can I reuse the mufflers or should I fork over the money for new ones?
You shouldn't need new mufflers. Just run new 2.5" pipe back to your 2.5" mufflers, then install the 2.5" mandrel bent tailpipes, and you're good. The muffler shop will probably be glad to see you come in with the tailpipes, as fabbing up new ones would probably be a pain. It should be pretty quick and easy.

One question... Why/how were you using 2.5" mufflers... and only 2" pipe?

Will it be easy to remove the mufflers from the system so they can be reused?
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post #33 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-17-2013, 10:14 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Dyno run question

I took a short cut because the muffler shop only had 2" in stock and I wanted it done that day, I could have waited a few days, but I was in such a rush to get it on the road I didn't stop to think about performance. Mistake!

All joints are welded so I am hoping that he can use a cut off saw so they can be reused. I am going to take it to him first and get his advice on the tail pipes. When I look at the front tubes, they have 2 pretty good bends in them to bring them from the side of the engine to the center of the car to fit into an X pipe. I may be able to straighten those bend out by using a H pipe.

Don
1967 Galaxie 2DHT w/460
Chopped to make a rag top
1972 F100
2013 F150 Platinum
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post #34 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-17-2013, 11:28 AM
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Re: Dyno run question

There should be no issue with cutting and reusing the 2.5 mufflers. When I get some time late summer or fall, I'd like to set-up a basic flow bench for pipes to get some real numbers for different bend angles, and mandrel, crush and crimp bends. While I was told by a respected flow-bench operator that the non-mandrel bends don't actually hurt flow like you'd think (think D-port heads), I would like to get my own numbers to verify.

Should be simple and repeatable - like a leaf blower and a MAF sensor. Others could then test and match results using a benchmark such as X length of Y diameter .065" pipes. A simple calculation could then be used to align the tests against each other. We could get lots of comparisons from different folks that would be valid that way. Who's in?

David

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post #35 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-17-2013, 01:40 PM
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Re: Dyno run question

DEFINITELY order the Flowmaster mandrel bent tailpipes. They will go right on, as the bends are not only much less restrictive, but also take much less room. To try and put decent sized tailpipes up and over the axle of your galaxie, will have them crushed all to hell if using a traditional bender.

When reusing the mufflers, be sure he doesn't just cut them off and weld over the restrictive 2" pipe sticking out of it. That will kill any of your gains. Be sure you get a chance to look through the mufflers after they are removed... as the easiest way for him to do it, would be to just cut them off an inch or so past the end, and just slide the larger pipe over the smaller stub. Make sure it's full sized in and out before the new exhaust is put on.

I would go with the H-pipe. Much straighter runs to the mufflers, and if an X-pipe isn't done just right, it can cost you a ton a power. If done right, it's not really any better than an H-pipe... It just sounds more shrill. Plus, it's hard to screw up an H-pipe. lol

Been there, done that when it comes to exhaust.

pics of mandrel vs. conventional bends









Good Luck!

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post #36 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-20-2013, 02:32 PM
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Re: Dyno run question

Quote:
Originally Posted by donwhis View Post
Here is the 460 engine build:

Stock block 30 over
Ported iron heads with stainless valves 2.19 int and 1.76 exh, pocket porting
Comp cams roller rockers with stud conversion, push rods
Torker II intake with heat cross over welded up
Stock Crank
Hypereutectic pistons
Stock Rods with ARP hardware
Lunati Bracket Master II #00097 with .554 lift on int and exh
Hydraulic flat tappet lifters
Engine was balanced
FPA shorty headers
Holly 80508S carb
Stock C6
3:50 mini spool Ford 9"
I built a motor for a Ford truck I owned back in the 90's and it had a .030 429 in it (83 Ford Short Wheelbase StepsideTruck) It set for about 8 years and my youngest son finally asks me if he can have it to race and I gave it to him. He replaced all the rubber hoses and tires and got it running and it ran the same ET as it did back in the day. We always thought it ran pretty good for the low compression motor. 7.90's and 80's in the 1/8th with 1.75 60 foot times. It has a weiand stealth small port intake with crappy small stock 2.08/1.65 73 heads, (huge 90 some odd cc chambers) trw flat top pistons, 700 holley double pumper and small tube headers.
Long Story short, my son decides the the hedman headers are ratty and the holley carb is ugly and puts a 950 quick fuel on it and some large tube hooker headers and the damn thing picks up over 2-3 tenths in the 1/8th. I think it ran mid 7.60's shifting at 5500rpm. 60' times now @ 1.67. Remember this an 8.8:1 compression motor with a stock eliminator cam, c6 trans with about a 3000 stall 12" torque converter. (The cam is a 1990's lunati stock eliminator class cam with tons of duration but no lift .500) Those 385 series motors with dual planes love lots of carb and free flowing exhaust. That's 50hp with a carb and header change. I just about fell out when I saw the pass.

What heads do you run?

I don't like the cam. That cam is begging for open headers.
I don't like the intake.
All in all you did pretty good with the numbers you made.

I looked up the cam and that is about as old school a cam as they come cam wise. That cam should be a low end cam all the way with a little lope.

If you have a stopped up exhaust system that would make everything even worse because it's single pattern cam.


http://www.lunatipower.com/CamSpecCard.aspx?partNumber=00097

Cam Spec Card :: Lunati Power

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post #37 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-21-2013, 10:38 AM
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Re: Dyno run question

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I just had my car on a dyno (rear wheel) and it showed lower numbers than I expected. Without going into the detail of the engine I bought it came with a dyno report that I assume was a computer model of the build.

The computer model, I don't have it in front of me right now, showed to to make over 500HP. The rear wheel dyno showed 317HP and 355 torque.

Should I expect that much loss through the drive train?

The dyno was performed by the Carol Shelby Automotive school at a local community college on a Dynojet Research machine. 2 runs were recorded and they were within 5 points of each other.

I just went back and ran the details this morning and it showed 380 flywheel horsepower on that combo with the way you had it set up. That's about .16% for loss through the tranny and driveline.
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post #38 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-23-2013, 12:50 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Dyno run question

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I just went back and ran the details this morning and it showed 380 flywheel horsepower on that combo with the way you had it set up. That's about .16% for loss through the tranny and driveline.

Is 16% average, below average, or above average - I don't have a point of reference to know if it is good or bad. Thanks. Not sure what casting number the heads are, I think 1973 vintage off of a Lincoln or T-bird.

I have a oil leak on the front and rear valleys of the intake. I need to take it off and put a new gasket set on because the leak is pissing me off. Since I am doing that I am strongly considering going to a Stealth dual plane and not putting the Torker single plane back on. To do that I will have to cut a hole in my hood and find some type of scoop and air cleaner combo.

I went to the muffler shop today and had a good talk with the "man". He was glad I would bring the mandrel bent over axle pipe and didn't see any issues in reusing the mufflers and insuring I get 2 1/2" from front to back. Not leaving any 2" inside the muffler or ball clamp on the collector. I ordered the pipes and should be here middle of next week. By the weekend I should be able to get the car and pipes to him.

Don
1967 Galaxie 2DHT w/460
Chopped to make a rag top
1972 F100
2013 F150 Platinum
2007 Jeep Commander (wife)
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post #39 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-23-2013, 01:14 PM
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Re: Dyno run question

Quote:
Originally Posted by donwhis View Post
Is 16% average, below average, or above average - I don't have a point of reference to know if it is good or bad. Thanks. Not sure what casting number the heads are, I think 1973 vintage off of a Lincoln or T-bird.

I have a oil leak on the front and rear valleys of the intake. I need to take it off and put a new gasket set on because the leak is pissing me off. Since I am doing that I am strongly considering going to a Stealth dual plane and not putting the Torker single plane back on. To do that I will have to cut a hole in my hood and find some type of scoop and air cleaner combo.

I went to the muffler shop today and had a good talk with the "man". He was glad I would bring the mandrel bent over axle pipe and didn't see any issues in reusing the mufflers and insuring I get 2 1/2" from front to back. Not leaving any 2" inside the muffler or ball clamp on the collector. I ordered the pipes and should be here middle of next week. By the weekend I should be able to get the car and pipes to him.
Awesome! I'm sure you'll like the new exhaust!

The dual plane will probably work better on your engine, but you're right... That Stealth is a very tall intake. Have you looked at the Performer RPM? They surely make one of those for the 460.

Good Luck!
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post #40 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-23-2013, 04:37 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Dyno run question

I have not looked at the Performer, is it shorter or has better performance. Because I did an engine swap from a 390 to 460 the engine sits higher than the FE did. I barely have clearance now with the single plane. And I am using an 8"=10" air cleaner to keep a low profile. I assumed any dual plane was going to force me into a scoop or bubble hood.

Guess what, I was looking at WOT today and it looks like the way I have it set up I get only 3/4 of the carb WOT. I need to get a buddy to help me press the accelerator while I see if the carb is fully opening. If it is not that will also explain the flattening of the HP/Torque curve.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate all the suggestion and advice this post has provided, It is a great example of those with knowledge sharing with wanta be HOT Rodders like me.

Don
1967 Galaxie 2DHT w/460
Chopped to make a rag top
1972 F100
2013 F150 Platinum
2007 Jeep Commander (wife)
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post #41 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-24-2013, 10:59 PM
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Re: Dyno run question

Quote:
Originally Posted by donwhis View Post
Is 16% average, below average, or above average - I don't have a point of reference to know if it is good or bad. Thanks. Not sure what casting number the heads are, I think 1973 vintage off of a Lincoln or T-bird.

I have a oil leak on the front and rear valleys of the intake. I need to take it off and put a new gasket set on because the leak is pissing me off. Since I am doing that I am strongly considering going to a Stealth dual plane and not putting the Torker single plane back on. To do that I will have to cut a hole in my hood and find some type of scoop and air cleaner combo.

I went to the muffler shop today and had a good talk with the "man". He was glad I would bring the mandrel bent over axle pipe and didn't see any issues in reusing the mufflers and insuring I get 2 1/2" from front to back. Not leaving any 2" inside the muffler or ball clamp on the collector. I ordered the pipes and should be here middle of next week. By the weekend I should be able to get the car and pipes to him.

16% is about right with a c6 im afraid. I did a light weight rotating parts c6 and roller bearings and it made a big difference but for a stock c6 15% is about right.
That cam is not bad but it doesn't give the exhaust any help and with the tiny exhaust system it only made things worse. I wish you the best of luck with your combo. I like the stealth and the ones I've used on 460's have worked good but with more than normal carb for the application. Fixing the exhaust may satisfy you without any other change.
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post #42 of 55 (permalink) Old 05-25-2013, 11:01 AM
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Re: Dyno run question

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16% is about right with a c6 im afraid. I did a light weight rotating parts c6 and roller bearings and it made a big difference but for a stock c6 15% is about right.
That cam is not bad but it doesn't give the exhaust any help and with the tiny exhaust system it only made things worse. I wish you the best of luck with your combo. I like the stealth and the ones I've used on 460's have worked good but with more than normal carb for the application. Fixing the exhaust may satisfy you without any other change.
15% is too low for a c6. As an example, the 5th gen camaro rated at 400hp only produces 320rwhp or so and that car has a much more efficient transmission than the clunky old c6 we use. i think a c6 might be closer to %22+ in losses.

a new zr1 corvette typically sees %15-17 in losses through a more effient MANUAL transmission too. just for reference.

stock LS1 Fbodies typically see %16-18 drivetrain losses in their auto cars and maybe %14-15 in the manual versions.

everything i hear is that the C6 is probably the least efficient passenger car transmission ever created with some people even claiming %30 losses! (bull ****). %25 percent isnt out of the realm of possibility though i think.

1968 Galaxie 500 Convertible
---533 Stroker---Trick Flow Street Heads, 260/[email protected] .655/.656 Solid Roller, Victor Intake, 1150 Dominator, 2800 stall, 2" Crites Headers, 3" Exhaust w/Magnaflows

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post #43 of 55 (permalink) Old 06-23-2013, 02:13 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Dyno run question

Well I finally got the time to have the exhaust pipes changed to 2 1/2" using the GM A body over the axle mandrel bends. Since I haven't been able to arrange a new dyno run I can't tell what difference it made. I can say that it sounds different, louder and with a flapping sound (hard to describe). And it seems to burn out with more power, burns all the way thru first and most of second. In fact, even with a locker rear end I can't stay on it all the way because it starts moving around and I get scared of ending up in the ditch.

I still need to do the basic carb tune, especially the idle jets. Checked float level and WOT operation already and they were OK.

Don
1967 Galaxie 2DHT w/460
Chopped to make a rag top
1972 F100
2013 F150 Platinum
2007 Jeep Commander (wife)
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post #44 of 55 (permalink) Old 06-23-2013, 05:02 PM
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Re: Dyno run question

Quote:
Originally Posted by donwhis View Post
Well I finally got the time to have the exhaust pipes changed to 2 1/2" using the GM A body over the axle mandrel bends. Since I haven't been able to arrange a new dyno run I can't tell what difference it made. I can say that it sounds different, louder and with a flapping sound (hard to describe). And it seems to burn out with more power, burns all the way thru first and most of second. In fact, even with a locker rear end I can't stay on it all the way because it starts moving around and I get scared of ending up in the ditch.

I still need to do the basic carb tune, especially the idle jets. Checked float level and WOT operation already and they were OK.
Sounds Good! I'm glad those mandrel bent A body pipes worked out!
Let us know how it goes if you get to the dyno again!
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post #45 of 55 (permalink) Old 06-29-2013, 09:29 AM
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Re: Dyno run question

Quote:
Originally Posted by donwhis View Post
Well I finally got the time to have the exhaust pipes changed to 2 1/2" using the GM A body over the axle mandrel bends. Since I haven't been able to arrange a new dyno run I can't tell what difference it made. I can say that it sounds different, louder and with a flapping sound (hard to describe). And it seems to burn out with more power, burns all the way thru first and most of second. In fact, even with a locker rear end I can't stay on it all the way because it starts moving around and I get scared of ending up in the ditch.

I still need to do the basic carb tune, especially the idle jets. Checked float level and WOT operation already and they were OK.

Good for you.
I sincerely hope you get it to your liking.
Love to know if it helped on the dyno.
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