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HELP!!! Noise on fresh 390 engine build

12K views 37 replies 13 participants last post by  fried_daddy 
#1 ·
I broke my camshaft in. Noise was there the entire time but I did not want to stop the cam break-in. Can anybody tell me what they think this noise is?
Specs.....
352 block bored over to 4.05 with a 390 crankshaft installed along with 390 rods and new 390 pistons with 4 valve relief.
I have stock C6AE-R heads with hardened valve seats and new valve springs. Running stock non adjustable rocker arms.

Noise is there throughout the entire rpm range. Here is a video. The noise is equal on both sides of the engine block. I will repost the same video in HD as soon as I get to some wifi.

Engine noise - YouTube
 
#7 ·
Sounds like exhaust leak on drivers side manifold. Start it up cold put you hand near exhaust manifold and you will feel the leak. Also take a long screw driver hold it on valve covers and you can hear a tick if it is valve train. From the video I don't hear it as much or any from the passenger side. So bet money it is exhaust leak on drivers side. Good news we can rule out crank, bearings and such, they knock.
JIM
 
#9 ·
Ok. I will try to reseal the exhaust manifold. When I installed them I just put the gasket in there. I didn't use any type of sealant on them. That may be part of the issue. And it is on the passengers side. Just not as loud as drivers side. If it is a exhaust leak, I will breathe a sigh of relief!! What type of gasket maker or sealant is good to use with the exhaust gaskets?
 
#8 ·
Hello fried_daddy,

If I may offer my 2 cents worth. When you had all the machining work done (installed hardened valve seats) and I assume new valves. Did you check the valve train geometry for changes?

Hymm, let me see if I can explain better, since the FE's are non adjustable rockers, any changes in the geometry has to corrected for in different length push rods (of which fractional increments/decrements in length are available). For example if the hardened valve seats moved the valves lower into the heads you'll need a longer push rod to compensate otherwise you'll end up with loose rockers/pushrods and you'll get a clatter from the valve train.

Now that noise could be an exhaust leak, hard to totally rule out without actually being there, but I thought I detected the "marching valve train" noise.

This could also be one or more lifters not pumping up (internal check valve not seating) possibly caused by left over flashing from manufacturing or foreign contamination inside the lifter.

Are your rockers new or used? Used rockers might have wear marks (valve stem contact area) that effectively moves around as the rocker is just spring loaded causing intermittent valve noise.

Ideally, the correct lifter preload is half way down the internal lifter seat bore when the engine is cold. (Obviously the lifter is on the base circle of the cam lobe when checking this.)

Hope this helps and I didn't bore your eyes out of your sockets :)

Cheers,

DesertXL
 
#11 ·
No, I didn't check geometry. I figured since I was going back with stock heds everything would clear okay.

My rockers are the existing rockers.

Would different length pushrods really make that much of a difference using hydraulic lifters? I will upload a video of the engine running with the valve covers off that I recorded yesterday before I took the rockers apart.

As far as the lifters. I cleaned each one with parts cleaner before installing. I then put them in a cup of break in oil for a few minutes. Then I applied assembly lube to only the surface that comes in contact with the cam lobe.
 
#12 ·
Hi fried_daddy,

An easy way to tell if you have excess play in the valve train would be to re-torque the rocker shafts back on the heads with the pushrods in place, then grab hold the rocker and or pushrod and move it up or down with your hand, remembering to keep the lifter your testing on the base circle of the camshaft. Keeping in mind that some lifter bleed down will be normal but you should be able to tell which ones are really loose as in no tension what-so-ever.

If a lifter bled down, you should still feel the light effects of the internal spring inside the lifter pushing back up on the pushrod.

Wishing you luck with this :)

Cheers,

DesertXL
 
#13 ·
FD,
Work on one thing at a time. Feel for leak around exhaust gasket when cold. You will feel it, look for soot and feel there first. Use a long screw driver on the valve covers, if something is wrong you will hear it. Then get deeper into problem if needed. I would not take anything apart until I have zeroed into problem. If it is a leak, a new gasket should fix it. You do not need sealer on exhaust gaskets, just clean surfaces on head and exhaust manifold. You must use a new gasket.

JIM
 
#16 ·
I like to work on one thing at a time, but it is getting nice outside and I am ready to do some cruising!!

I just got done removing the exhaust gaskets on drivers and passenger side. Here is a pic of what they looked like. I cleaned the manifolds before installing and the heads were fresh from the machine shop. Definitely signs of leaking from the mating surface. My factory manifold flanges are not in the best shape. I am using them until I get ready to upgrade to to shorty headers. I'm about to run to the store and grab some more gaskets. I hope the new ones get a good seal when I put them on.






 
#17 ·
Sure hope the exhaust is your issue there. I had a 65 289 rebuilt for a notchback Mustang some time ago and pretty soon after installation one of the rocker arm studs popped out of the head!

One observation from your pictures, things look pretty oily inside two of those exhaust manifold chambers. Is it just the lighting or flash?
 
#19 ·
The old log headers were not cleaned, other than me removing old gasket material. Whatever is on them is leftover from the engines last life. But it's soot, not oil. Must be the flash!
 
#21 ·
Certainly no engine expert here, but it doesn't look like much if any oil is getting to the rocker shaft in those two videos. Always heard the FE's were notorious for sending a lot of oil to the heads, so that doesn't look right at all to me. One of the four bolts that hold the rocker shafts on is different (longer I believe) and has to go in the right spot or you won't get oil to the rockers.
 
#22 ·
I was thinking there was lack of oil also after watching it with the cover off. That's what had me highly alarmed while hearing this noise. I have no videos to compare the oiling to. If you know of any, please share links. I have good oil pressure. Cranking the engine with the rockers removed, I get oil coming out of the oil hole. It's not shooting out with any force though. Just a light stream flowing out. While the engine is running, it has good oil pressure on my gauge. The long bolt was correctly placed in the spot with the oil hole on both driver and pass side.
 
#29 ·
Thanks everyone for all the help!!!

You are fine! There was PLENTY of oil up top. That is not going to be an issue.

FE's aren't 'like oil splashing chevy's, they simply need a dribble on the pushrod tip and some to run down the valve side.

You have enough.:)
That makes me feel better about the oiling.


Did look at a few videos on YouTube and they looked like yours, so I guess I was wrong in what I was expecting. My first thought was an exhaust leak and the gaskets seem to confirm that. Sounds like you covered all your bases so listen to FE and the others and ignore me. :D
Yeah. Some videos I saw had cardboard on teh head to stop oil from flowing over. Some videos ran just like mines. So I was unsure of what to expect.

Do like FE says and get those exhaust manifolds milled flat.
Then see what you have. It is not a big ticket item.

When my heads were done they "cleaned up" all three sides.
Intake, block and exhaust side.

I have had exhaust manifolds milled flat, they can even do it for headers.

All the best.
I will take the money that would go torwards the machining and add that to my header fund.

There should be a lot more oil up there...make sure the oiling holes on the rocker arm shaft are pointing down...
Heres a tired ol 390 with a helluva lot more oil than yours

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPZWWTSYoPE
The oiling holes were pointing down. I took the arms off the shaft and it appears to have alot of old engine gunk in it. Also shows signs of wear. New shafts are on the way.
 
#24 ·
Did look at a few videos on YouTube and they looked like yours, so I guess I was wrong in what I was expecting. My first thought was an exhaust leak and the gaskets seem to confirm that. Sounds like you covered all your bases so listen to FE and the others and ignore me. :D
 
#25 · (Edited)
Do like FE says and get those exhaust manifolds milled flat.
Then see what you have. It is not a big ticket item.

When my heads were done they "cleaned up" all three sides.
Intake, block and exhaust side.

I have had exhaust manifolds milled flat, they can even do it for headers.

All the best.
 
#26 ·
When you bolt it all together leave the fan off. That will make it easier to find the exhaust leak, if that is the problem.
 
#30 ·
When you bolt it all together leave the fan off. That will make it easier to find the exhaust leak, if that is the problem.
If I still have noise after I start it up, I will remove the fan to check.

Don't leave the fan off, that means you would have to take it off first ( extra work for nothing). Remember solve one problem at a time, or you will make more problems.
FE has it right, and from the looks of your gaskets, so do I. Those log manifolds are warped and need to be machined flat. I paid 25 each to have mine machined. One almost could not machine flat, they were that warped. Also they had never been off the motor since new. If you cannot get it machined right away, then double up on gaskets, ( they will leak eventually though), best to fix it right the first time. As for the oil, look at your rockers are they dry? Fords ooze the oil on FE's you should see the oil pool up in the bottom of heads and then going back down through the return holes. It looks like only a exhaust leak, at least for sure it is that and then once you fix that, you can listen for rocker noise with a long screw driver. Do it once, do it right.
JIM
I didn't think these heavy factory manifolds could warp! Instead of spending money and time dealing with the machine shop, just to take them off in a few weeks, I will put the money back for my header fund. I plan on getting some shorty headers around the end of the month. In the meantime I will try to get a better seal with the log headers.

The rockers were not dry when I took them apart, although the shafts were filled with old engine junk!
 
#28 ·
Don't leave the fan off, that means you would have to take it off first ( extra work for nothing). Remember solve one problem at a time, or you will make more problems.
FE has it right, and from the looks of your gaskets, so do I. Those log manifolds are warped and need to be machined flat. I paid 25 each to have mine machined. One almost could not machine flat, they were that warped. Also they had never been off the motor since new. If you cannot get it machined right away, then double up on gaskets, ( they will leak eventually though), best to fix it right the first time. As for the oil, look at your rockers are they dry? Fords ooze the oil on FE's you should see the oil pool up in the bottom of heads and then going back down through the return holes. It looks like only a exhaust leak, at least for sure it is that and then once you fix that, you can listen for rocker noise with a long screw driver. Do it once, do it right.
JIM
 
#31 ·
UTRY wasn't thinking when he asked if the oil holes were pointing downward... I think I'll just leave it to him to figure out how that statement is retarded...

You have an engine IDLING when oil flow is at it's lowest. You basically have a stock motor with no HV or HP oil pump, there is NO REASON whatsoever for the oil to be squirting out like crude out of a Texas oil well.

Watching your video you hove EXCELLENT oiling properties.

Your exhaust sound is from warped manifolds, they don't LOOK like they are warped but the bolt hole flanges are tiny compared to the body of the manifold and schitt just happens. Double the gasket will keep it quiet for about 3 weeks. or so :D
 
#32 ·
Ok.
I do have a basic stock motor. But, I also have a Melling High Volume oil pump. I can understand where they would be warped from torquing them down. It's been so long ago....I think I remember them having two haskets when I initially tore the engine down for rebuild. Anyways, I hope I will have the exhaust leak taken care of for now so I can hit the local cruise in's. Can't wait to get headers and do the rest of the exhaust. I will pay extra attention to making sure the surfaces on the block are clear of all the gasket material that will be stuck on them.
 
#33 ·
If you don't to spend money on your old ex.manifolds a good fix I discovered for those darn exhaust leaks that can't be fixed is to use exhaust manifold gaskets from a company called -Remflex- they are 1/8" thick with a sandwich of 3 materials, good to 3000 farenheit.
I'm using a set on a small block with Hedman headers, the flanges are warped & I tried Remlex as a last resort, been great for 6 months
 
#34 ·
Update!!! I put new rocker arm shafts in today along with new exhaust gaskets. The exhaust leak part of the problem has been solved.

When i put the new rocker shafts in, I made sure to coat everything real good with assembly lube. Upon starting the engine, she sounded beautiful...... Until the assembly lube wore off.

This made me look deeper into the lack of oil to the rocker arm shafts. I pulled the distributor and spun up the oil pump using my drill. No signs of leaks. I read that it is common for builders to forget to put the plug behind the timing gear. So, I pulled the power steering and fuel pump off for further inspection. FOUND IT!!! I will be taking off the accessories and timing cover so I can put this plug back in. Here is a video of the oil spraying on the timing gear.

http://youtu.be/9PaLyFVHcBk
 
#35 ·
You nailed it. Wow.
Checking this was on my list. Sorry yours was left off, what a pain.
I went thru all the plugs with my machinist when I picked up the motor.

Painful birth, but you will have a great engine.

Want to hear it run, when all is good!!!

All the best
 
#38 ·
You nailed it. Wow.

Checking this was on my list. Sorry yours was left off, what a pain.

I went thru all the plugs with my machinist when I picked up the motor.



Painful birth, but you will have a great engine.



Want to hear it run, when all is good!!!



All the best
Yes it is a pain. Just glad I don't have to pull the motor. I was prepared for the worst. When I picked up my motor my short block was wrapped in plastic. Didn't even think to check after the machine shop for plugs. I was too excited to get it all put together!

Here is a video of checking the oil plug behind the timing gear. Oil spraying everywhere!!
http://youtu.be/QqCosBhHRf4
 
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