Hydraulic Roller Lifters For FE - Ford Muscle Forums : Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum
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post #1 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-21-2016, 07:52 PM Thread Starter
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Hydraulic Roller Lifters For FE

Hello All,

I was wondering if any of you have used the aftermarket hydraulic roller conversion lifters and if so, what brand worked for you?

The reason I ask is that I found my low oil pressure problem. When the lifter is at the top or near top of the cam lobe, the top land on the lifter is near enough the top of the lifter bore and it hemorrhages out the lifter valley area when the oil is hot and thin.

The brand I have installed is Competition Cams.

Thank you for your time.
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post #2 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-22-2016, 11:22 AM
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Re: Hydraulic Roller Lifters For FE

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Originally Posted by DesertXL View Post
Hello All,

I was wondering if any of you have used the aftermarket hydraulic roller conversion lifters and if so, what brand worked for you?

The reason I ask is that I found my low oil pressure problem. When the lifter is at the top or near top of the cam lobe, the top land on the lifter is near enough the top of the lifter bore and it hemorrhages out the lifter valley area when the oil is hot and thin.

The brand I have installed is Competition Cams.

Thank you for your time.
The cam needs a "smaller base circle" which also shortens the lobe height and keep the oil hole in the lifter "in the block". Lift is the same regardless.

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post #3 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-22-2016, 12:42 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Hydraulic Roller Lifters For FE

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Originally Posted by GT350HR View Post
The cam needs a "smaller base circle" which also shortens the lobe height and keep the oil hole in the lifter "in the block". Lift is the same regardless.
Hi GT350HR,

Thank you for replying. If that's the case then the Crane Cam isn't machined correctly. Either way this is an oh crap moment.

This is where I'm at. Here's a snippet from the Crane Cam catalogue.



The camshaft I am using is the HR222 series, I originally planned on using all Crane parts (pushrods and lifters) but at the time everyone was sold out of the Crane lifters (P/N 35532) but I was told the Comp Cams lifters (P/N 8934) would work in their place.

Enter Comp Cam lifters.



And installed in the block, and I didn't catch this till now, obviously.



But you can see the top machined land is practically out of the lifter bore and oil is spraying out from around the lifter bore when these get close or on the top of the cam lobe.

I called Crane today and they gave me the critical dimension from the centre of the axle to the top of the groove/oil hole so hopefully I can get one of these Comp lifters out and compare that to see if the Crane lifter will work. However if it's going to have the same problem then it is pointing towards the camshaft.



I have choice words either way but I shall keep them to an inner monologue.

<sigh>

Cheers.

Last edited by DesertXL; 12-22-2016 at 12:44 PM.
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post #4 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-22-2016, 02:39 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Hydraulic Roller Lifters For FE

Hi GT350HR,

It starting to look like you are spot on with this and the base circle. I just pulled the Comp lifters and they have practically the same critical dimensions as the Crane lifter, which means they will not work either (same problem).

I'll have to wait to next Friday (when Crane is open again) and talk to them about their camshaft and how this is not adding up and what can be done with a brand new 400 dollar cam that has maybe one hour on it.

In the meantime I guess I'll be pulling the engine back out and putting it back on the stand as I also have a confirmed kill with a brand new Edelbrock head in that two intake valves are leaking back through the carb when the cylinder is pressurized with 100 psi and why when it was running the vacuum gauge was all over the place bouncing like mad.

How at times I loathe the aftermarket, let me count the ways.....

Cheers.
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post #5 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-22-2016, 04:39 PM
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Re: Hydraulic Roller Lifters For FE

DesertXL,
No I am not blaming Crane . It could be anyone's cam with that situation. I was simply saying how it occurred . I have had considerable camshaft experience and realized right off the bat what you had going on. Most retrofit roller cams have a smaller base circle for that reason. If the Crane lifter had a different "undercut" than the Comp, it might not expose the undercut and cause the leak. From what it sounds like the Crane may be the same in that respect. The cam may have to be ground again to a smaller base circle. At least you caught it before it was in the car and attempting to run. Crane is a very reputable company and making it right for you ( and potentially others ) is in their best interest.
Randy

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post #6 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-23-2016, 05:13 AM
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Re: Hydraulic Roller Lifters For FE

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Originally Posted by DesertXL View Post
Hi GT350HR,
I called Crane today and they gave me the critical dimension from the centre of the axle to the top of the groove/oil hole so hopefully I can get one of these Comp lifters out and compare that to see if the Crane lifter will work.
Desert,

Just a thought, and I don't have any experience with this, but you mention the center of the axle. If the Crane lifters happened to have a smaller diameter roller, wouldn't they sit lower in the bore? Probably not enough difference in roller size (if any) to fix the problem.

The other thing I thought of is, hopefully the lifter bores in the engine aren't oversized from wear, allowing too much oil to flow around them. I don't know if there's such a thing as an oversized (roller) lifter to compensate if that's part of the problem.

Regarding the Edelbrock head, it's really disappointing that this type of thing would make it out of QC. Not much point in buying a completely assembled head if the quality is such that you have to check everything. Probably a good idea to lay a straightedge across the tops of the valves too if you haven't already. Hopefully Edelbrock will make it right.

Pat

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post #7 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-23-2016, 07:56 AM
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Re: Hydraulic Roller Lifters For FE

They have the same diameter roller wheel. It would have to be .200 smaller to put the lifter .100 deeper into the block and that isn't possible. Lifter bore wear IS a possibility but "I" feel the base circle is the issue here. Let's see what Crane suggests.
Randy

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post #8 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-23-2016, 10:40 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Hydraulic Roller Lifters For FE

Hello 1964Fastback and GT350HR,

My better half spoke to Edelbrock and even though the 1 warranty is past they were pretty good about it after explaining the situation. They said to ship the head back to them with a detailed note and they'll go over it and fix any problems and send it back no charge.

So that's good news. Here's hoping Crane can help out when I call them next time they're open.

The Comp Cam lifters p/n 8934 are supposed to be a substitute for Cranes 35532 lifters.

Hopefully they can regrind it or exchange it. I do not know how much they can take off, I would presume they could reduce the base circle almost to the height of the cam core diameter?



I've never had to deal with problems of this nature before, it's all a learning curve to me.

Thank you again for all your inputs.

Cheers.
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post #9 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 05:22 AM
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Re: Hydraulic Roller Lifters For FE

I agree with the logic so far, and no question having lifters for one base circle and a cam designed with another could cause it, but is the assumption that somehow the cam was made on the wrong base circle? I don't see how that could happen. I suppose anything made can be made wrong, but that's a pretty big mistake.

If the lifter band protrudes from the bore at lift, I'd be comparing the Comp to the Crane first, The first thing I'd want to see is a single 35532 lifter in my hand to hold up against the comps, that may explain it. The Comps just might be made for a different base circle and it wasn't a mistake but two incompatible parts

I haven't done a hyd roller FE, but Brent Lykins and I talk regularly and he uses Morel. Might be another option if the Comps are wrong, they seem to sit a little lower using my calibrated eyeball LOL

BTW, I asked him to come look at this post

Also, do you know they are dumping oil from the bores? You say the lifter almost exits although I would assume it's not intended to protrude completely, I would think the bottom band would block the oil galley at high lift

Also, sorry to see your valve job issue, but it's happened to a few guys over the years. For some reason Edelbrock doesn't put a great valve job on them. It's surprising, because in the volume they do, I would think they have great equipment, but every so often someone gets one.


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post #10 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 05:51 AM
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Re: Hydraulic Roller Lifters For FE

Having fun this morning with FM. Couldn't login and after 5 minutes of fighting that, I finally nailed the landing and was able to reply. Typed out a good half page of stuff, then lost it.

Ok...

You don't have the same "retro-fit" issues with FE's like you do with SBF's. On a Windsor, if you have an early block, you use a small base circle camshaft with OEM style lifters so that the oil band isn't exposed at lift. On an FE, you don't have this issue because every cam/lifter is designed for just one scenario. I've used/sold *hundreds* of FE hydraulic roller camshafts from Comp/Bullet/Crane, and I've never seen/heard this issue with any of them, nor have I ever specified a small base circle. The only time you use a small base circle camshaft with an FE is when you're doing a full custom deal and the large lobe lift requires it.

With all that being said, I'm going to go out in the shop and measure a Morel lifter for you so that you'll have some reference dimensions. I'm not saying that something isn't made correctly, as we all know stuff happens, but the chances are very slim. My guess is that the oil that you see bleeding up around the lifters are from loose lifter bore clearances, and I have seen that before. However, if your lifters were bypassing that much oil, your valvetrain would have been very noisy because the lifters wouldn't stay pumped up.

Give me 5 and I'll come back with some dimensions for you.
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post #11 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 05:59 AM
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Re: Hydraulic Roller Lifters For FE

On a Morel lifter, from the end of the roller wheel to the bottom of the oil band is .885". From the end of the roller to the top of the oil band is 1.500".

I also have several FE hydraulic roller cams here if you want to compare some dimensions. However, I still think there's not an issue, unless Crane REALLY screwed up and the base circle is just way out in space somewhere. Again, highly doubtful, as I'd say all the cam companies buy the cores from the same place.

My guess is that the bleeding that you're seeing is just excessive lifter bore clearances and your low oil pressure problem is probably something else.

From time to time, Morel is out of lifters and I have to use other brands. I have used Comp lifters, Crane, etc. I actually just used a set of the Comp lifters a few weeks ago. I've never seen any issues with lifter oil bands, nor have I ever seen any base circle issues with FE hydraulic rollers. The only difference between lifters is in the pushrod seat height.

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post #12 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 06:03 AM
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Re: Hydraulic Roller Lifters For FE

Thanks Brent

Some other things to look for for low oil pressure

- Bearing clearances clearances
- Cam bearings worn or damaged
- Missing galley plug (potentially left one out behind the distributor)
- Poorly built pump (I have seen them with excessive rotor clearance, but not in a long while)

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post #13 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 06:05 AM
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Re: Hydraulic Roller Lifters For FE

Yep, I tend to think there's another gun that's smoking somewhere.

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post #14 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-26-2016, 02:45 PM
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Re: Hydraulic Roller Lifters For FE

Desert,

Apparently there is also some issue with the orientation of the lifter oiling holes. This article discusses it some, and there are other mentions that I came across:

Camshaft and Lifters Guide for Ford FE Engines

But I'm not sure if the example shown in the photo applies (solid roller lifters). Anyway, just one other thing to check/be aware of since you have the motor all apart anyway.

Pat

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post #15 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-28-2016, 04:53 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Hydraulic Roller Lifters For FE

Hello all,

OK, with your kind replies and much investigation and removing the engine finally, again, I think I found the problem. I mean it could only really be 3 things:

*Block
*Cam
*Lifters

All seem unlikely to have anything wrong with them to let the oil hole/notch out of the bore slightly and jet oil out. Which was happening. This is how I noticed that problem. I let the engine warm up till the oil was hot and thin, then I quickly shut it down and removed the rockers and the dizzy. I manually primed the hot thin oil through the engine. Aside from the gluttony of oil still pouring out the roller tips on the rockers I noticed oil jetting up along sides of some of the pushrods from the galley.

Shinning a light I down there I could see oil jetting out the sides of the lifters that were at lift. There was a small emulsion of oil around the lifters not at full lift but nothing I would deem not normal, if that makes any sense.

Using the starter to bump the engine with the manual prime running the oil jetting out the side was consistent with any lifter at the full lift position.

That's one problem. Another still way too much oil coming up through the pushrods when hot. Just with manual prime and the engine motionless there is oil pouring out the roller tips of the rockers and this is strictly push rod oiling.

First things first. The mechanical fitment of the roller lifters. So this has driven me absolutely batty until now, at least I hope. Because the problem is with the block.

Picture time...



This is the engine as of today. I totally forgot that I had already exchanged the Comp lifters for another set of Comp lifters a year ago. It's hell getting old. It came flooding back when I popped off the intake and it didn't look like this.


I guess back then I thought I had caught the problem of the machined lands sticking too high in the bore. Comp Cams told me that this set was an old design and so I traded for the newer design (pic above) where they lowered the upper machined land so more of it sticks in the bore. However I still missed the fact that the oil hole and notch are still rising slightly above bore.



Here's the oil hole and surrounding notch on the side, which according to the article so generously posted by 1964Fastback this is the incorrect oil hole location as these let too much oil to the head via push rod oiling, which I can attest to when the oil is hot and thin.

But I digress. Here's the apparent problem.



The actual lifter bore doesn't actually start till further down the apparent lifter bore. If the bore went nearly to the top the oil hole and notch would be covered.

So this is a 1966 "Y" code 390 block. It just so happens I have 3 other FE blocks in the garage to compare. 2 of which are also 1966's.

Here's a 1966 352 fresh from the machine shop



Its lifter bores go to the top with just a chamfer.

Here's a 1966 crusty "Y" code 390 block.



It too has a lifter bore all the way to the top with just a chamfer, so these lifter and cam will work in these blocks, just not the one that it's intended for.

<sigh>

However thanks to blykins and his generous measurements of the Morel lifter I think that will work as the distance from the Comp Cams lifter wheel to top of the oil notch is 1.68 and the Morel is 1.5 that lowers the oil hole 0.18" enough to be covered in the weirdly machined lifter block.

That should solve the mechanical fit problem and a good portion of the oil control problem. Now according to the article about oil hole location, the Morel's are in the proper position (This is all new to me) and if correct should do a much better job at metering oil to the rockers and that might just solve all the oil control problems.

If still too much oil is going to the roller rockers then I'll have to have solid push rods made and go back to a precise metering of the pressure feed port in the head.

As a side note before I removed the heads and intake once the engine was back out of the car, I decided to do another static compression check of both heads and better listen for leaking valves.



Glad I did, #8 is also leaking through the intake valve and quite a few have very slight leaks on the exhaust valves. So that's 3 intake valves leaking, no wonder why the vacuum gauge was bouncing like mad all over the place at idle. Good grief now I have to send both brand new heads back to Edelbrock to have them fix their initial valve job.

I swear this engine is jinxed.

I do wish to thank you all very kindly for your input, it's been invaluable.

Cheers.
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