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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 10:55 AM Thread Starter
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Rolling Resistance As My Gal Heats Up

OK, the link below is the front disc brake setup that my 63 Gals previous owner had installed. The rears are still the stock drums. Vacuum to the system is supplied by a Leeds vacuum pump. Normal braking is just fine.

https://www.autocityclassic.com/full...ke-conversion/

When the car is cold sitting in my shop I can roll it by hand myself. When I first start to drive the car cold everything feels normal with no rolling resistance. But as the car warms up and I make a few stops a rolling resistance starts to develop. If I pull up to a red light on a slight hill that normally you would start to roll back on if you released the brake, I can feel the car locked in place and it wont roll back. You can feel that in all aspects of driving weather forward or backwards. I have backed off the rear brakes as much as safely possible thinking that may help, but still the same. And I don't smell that heavy burning brake smell either. Trying to back into a parking spot at the donut shop cruise morning Saturday the car didn't want to roll back in.

I am thinking about replacing the master cylinder and the proportioning valve. Otherwise I am at a loss to figure this out. Any help would be appreciated.

[SIGPIC]
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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 11:23 AM
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Re: Rolling Resistance As My Gal Heats Up

I'd start by determining which wheel(s) are causing the problem. Try feeling the center of the wheels carefully, they will likely be hot. That should at least help you narrow it down. That said, my guess would be the front calipers aren't releasing fully. What is the condition of the rubber brake lines? These can deteriorate and fail internally. When that happens, they act as somewhat of a one-way valve. You can overcome the resistance with your foot but when you release the pedal, the hoses prevent the brakes from fully releasing.


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1964 Galaxie 500 2 dr Fastback, 390, 4 speed, Indianapolis Indiana
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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 11:32 AM
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Re: Rolling Resistance As My Gal Heats Up

Quote:
Originally Posted by fordwilly View Post
OK, the link below is the front disc brake setup that my 63 Gals previous owner had installed. The rears are still the stock drums. Vacuum to the system is supplied by a Leeds vacuum pump. Normal braking is just fine.

https://www.autocityclassic.com/full...ke-conversion/

When the car is cold sitting in my shop I can roll it by hand myself. When I first start to drive the car cold everything feels normal with no rolling resistance. But as the car warms up and I make a few stops a rolling resistance starts to develop. If I pull up to a red light on a slight hill that normally you would start to roll back on if you released the brake, I can feel the car locked in place and it wont roll back. You can feel that in all aspects of driving weather forward or backwards. I have backed off the rear brakes as much as safely possible thinking that may help, but still the same. And I don't smell that heavy burning brake smell either. Trying to back into a parking spot at the donut shop cruise morning Saturday the car didn't want to roll back in.

I am thinking about replacing the master cylinder and the proportioning valve. Otherwise I am at a loss to figure this out. Any help would be appreciated.
you need adjust brake booster pushrod...

its not fully releasing master cylinder...
as you use brakes , they heat up and fluid expands and has no where to go..
therefore your brakes start dragging...


i was dealing with the same issue.. i also had to add a return spring on pedal
as the weight of pedal it self was activating pressure valve in booster slightly..(i know it sounds crazy..but true..)


watch this video first, before going out and buying bunch of new parts....start about 5 min in..





%201964%20Galaxie/?action=view&current=09-03-10_1408.jpg Lars...
64 galaxie 500 2dr fastback...390 4v, Bendtsen adapter, maddog's stage3 700R4 trans,3.70 Posi..far from perfect but getting there...

Last edited by RAGGAREN; 07-28-2019 at 11:59 AM.
 
post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 04:25 PM
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Re: Rolling Resistance As My Gal Heats Up

Both of the above suggestions have led to conditions as the OP has described in my experience. The weak hoses tend to only affect one wheel and can usually be determined by the heat being generated by the dragging brake. The excessive length pushrod will display itself thru all 4 wheels displaying excessive heat.


The hose issue happens when the interior of the hose deteriorates to the point where a flap of rubber may flip back preventing the brake from releasing much like a check valve would do. The easy way to demonstrate this is that after you've determined which wheel is not turning, raise the tire off the ground and crack the line at the caliper or drum. If there is a spray of pressurized fluid that now allows the wheel to turn you've verified the problem.


Disclaimer: Use all necessary safety precautions when working on a car lifted off the ground.
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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 09:25 PM
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Re: Rolling Resistance As My Gal Heats Up

I'd start by putting the car on 4 Jack stands, then pushing the brake pedal several(think the usual.number of time before you feel the drag driving) and try to turn each wheel by hand. If all 4 wheels lock, this may be the master cylinder, or pushrod length. If only on locks, this could be line issue, caliper sticking, or caliper slides sticking. If its front or back brakes dragging, could still be master cylinder, or booster pushrod length, or maybe even the pedal not fully releasing causing the front, or rear, to stay partially engaged.

It's best to do a little more investigative work before just spending money on parts.


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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 04:12 AM
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Re: Rolling Resistance As My Gal Heats Up

He can check his pedal pushrod length simply pulling back on the pedal and carefully let it reseat in the back of the booster piston, there should be a brief dead space before the metal engages the booster. No need to jack up, pump, etc. It's not as big of a deal as we're making it out to be.

Last edited by femurphy77; 07-31-2019 at 05:37 AM.
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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 03:38 PM
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Re: Rolling Resistance As My Gal Heats Up

I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one with the braking issue you describe. The previous owner of my 63.5 427 car had installed Master Power Brakes power 4 wheel discs on my car. They seemed fine on the limited test drive I did before I bought the car. Shortly after I bought it I took the car apart for a major restomod treatment. From the time we got it back together, it has had this issue. We have done and tried everything mentioned so far, and then some, talked to numerous experts . . . can't solve it (yet!). It's definitely booster pushrod related. I have become comfortable driving the car the way it is, and when the car starts slowing itself down (feels like regenerative brakes on electric cars) I just hook a foot under the brake pedal, pull it up a couple of inches, and we're back to fine for a while. When the brakes start to drag again, repeat previous steps. As an aside, if you are using the OE hydraulic brake light switch, your brake lights will come on and stay on at the same the dragging is taking place until the hydraulic pressure bleeds off. So when you come out of McDonald's and see your brake lights are on and go "WTF", that's why. RAGGAREN, do you have a description and picture of the brake pedal return spring you installed in your car? I have thought about installing one but I haven't figured a way to do it that would look good so I would be interested to know what you did. Thanks. And for the rest of you, when you find a solution to this please let us know. Thanks!
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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 05:22 PM
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Re: Rolling Resistance As My Gal Heats Up

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Originally Posted by femurphy77 View Post
He can check his pedal pushrod length simply pulling back on the pedal and carefully let it reseat in the back of the booster piston, there should be a brief dead space before the medal engages the booster. No need to jack up, pump, etc. It's not as big of a deal as we're making it out to be.
Yeah totally not needed to ACTUALLY figure out what's going on. I totally steal money from customers everytime I go through these steps as a PROFESSIONAL.

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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 08:21 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Rolling Resistance As My Gal Heats Up

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Originally Posted by 635Rangoon427 View Post
I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one with the braking issue you describe. The previous owner of my 63.5 427 car had installed Master Power Brakes power 4 wheel discs on my car. They seemed fine on the limited test drive I did before I bought the car. Shortly after I bought it I took the car apart for a major restomod treatment. From the time we got it back together, it has had this issue. We have done and tried everything mentioned so far, and then some, talked to numerous experts . . . can't solve it (yet!). It's definitely booster pushrod related. I have become comfortable driving the car the way it is, and when the car starts slowing itself down (feels like regenerative brakes on electric cars) I just hook a foot under the brake pedal, pull it up a couple of inches, and we're back to fine for a while. When the brakes start to drag again, repeat previous steps. As an aside, if you are using the OE hydraulic brake light switch, your brake lights will come on and stay on at the same the dragging is taking place until the hydraulic pressure bleeds off. So when you come out of McDonald's and see your brake lights are on and go "WTF", that's why. RAGGAREN, do you have a description and picture of the brake pedal return spring you installed in your car? I have thought about installing one but I haven't figured a way to do it that would look good so I would be interested to know what you did. Thanks. And for the rest of you, when you find a solution to this please let us know. Thanks!
Thank you 635. I guess its comforting to know I'm not alone. Now that I know what the problem likely is, I tend to key in on the not so obvious also. By not so obvious I mean things like I have noticed how really close a couple of my steel brake lines are to my shorty headers. They have to pick up a ton of heat. I am also thinking to upgrade to dot 4 (5 not being compatible with 3 or 4}. I have just added a spring to my brake pedal as Reggaren did. This job as yours did, will grow bigger in scope so I have decided it is above my pay grade. Its going to my fantastic mechanic Friday. He has my OK to replace anything. But also to think outside the box. I have my Gal right where I want her now except for this brake issue so I will be very aggressive on this. My ride last Saturday was not enjoyable with these brakes. If needed I will replace everything. ----- I talked to Auto City Classics this morning and they told me my disc brake conversion was based on 1978 Corvette master cylinder.

[SIGPIC]
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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-30-2019, 06:35 PM
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Re: Rolling Resistance As My Gal Heats Up

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Originally Posted by moose2009 View Post
Yeah totally not needed to ACTUALLY figure out what's going on. I totally steal money from customers everytime I go through these steps as a PROFESSIONAL.

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Ooh, yeah I should have gleaned your greatness from the positive vibes emanating from your post. Sure hope you at least ACT as PROFESSIONAL as you come across on this forum.


*******!
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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 05:00 PM
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Re: Rolling Resistance As My Gal Heats Up

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Originally Posted by 635Rangoon427 View Post
RAGGAREN, do you have a description and picture of the brake pedal return spring you installed in your car? I have thought about installing one but I haven't figured a way to do it that would look good so I would be interested to know what you did. Thanks. And for the rest of you, when you find a solution to this please let us know. Thanks!
i had a extra pedal assembly for my 57 chevy..
i scavenge the spring from that...
i was a sob to install on the galaxie pedal ...
but works great.....






%201964%20Galaxie/?action=view&current=09-03-10_1408.jpg Lars...
64 galaxie 500 2dr fastback...390 4v, Bendtsen adapter, maddog's stage3 700R4 trans,3.70 Posi..far from perfect but getting there...
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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 05:10 PM
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Re: Rolling Resistance As My Gal Heats Up

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Originally Posted by moose2009 View Post
I'd start by putting the car on 4 Jack stands, then pushing the brake pedal several(think the usual.number of time before you feel the drag driving) and try to turn each wheel by hand. If all 4 wheels lock, this may be the master cylinder, or pushrod length. If only on locks, this could be line issue, caliper sticking, or caliper slides sticking. If its front or back brakes dragging, could still be master cylinder, or booster pushrod length, or maybe even the pedal not fully releasing causing the front, or rear, to stay partially engaged.

It's best to do a little more investigative work before just spending money on parts.
that is real hard to replicate if you are not actually driving the car...


brake fluid get heated up from the friction by rotors and drums and then slowly expanding more and more,
the hotter brake components gets..

%201964%20Galaxie/?action=view&current=09-03-10_1408.jpg Lars...
64 galaxie 500 2dr fastback...390 4v, Bendtsen adapter, maddog's stage3 700R4 trans,3.70 Posi..far from perfect but getting there...

Last edited by RAGGAREN; 07-31-2019 at 05:23 PM.
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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 05:21 PM
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Re: Rolling Resistance As My Gal Heats Up

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Originally Posted by fordwilly View Post
Thank you 635. I guess its comforting to know I'm not alone. Now that I know what the problem likely is, I tend to key in on the not so obvious also. By not so obvious I mean things like I have noticed how really close a couple of my steel brake lines are to my shorty headers. They have to pick up a ton of heat. I am also thinking to upgrade to dot 4 (5 not being compatible with 3 or 4}. I have just added a spring to my brake pedal as Reggaren did. This job as yours did, will grow bigger in scope so I have decided it is above my pay grade. Its going to my fantastic mechanic Friday. He has my OK to replace anything. But also to think outside the box. I have my Gal right where I want her now except for this brake issue so I will be very aggressive on this. My ride last Saturday was not enjoyable with these brakes. If needed I will replace everything. ----- I talked to Auto City Classics this morning and they told me my disc brake conversion was based on 1978 Corvette master cylinder.
heres also another way of testing if you have a pushrod issue..
loosen the two nuts holding master to booster slip 1or 2 washer on to
threaded stud between master and booster, then tighten back down..
go for a test drive...
if working normal, then you know pushrod is adjusted out to far...

%201964%20Galaxie/?action=view&current=09-03-10_1408.jpg Lars...
64 galaxie 500 2dr fastback...390 4v, Bendtsen adapter, maddog's stage3 700R4 trans,3.70 Posi..far from perfect but getting there...
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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 05:55 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Rolling Resistance As My Gal Heats Up

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Originally Posted by RAGGAREN View Post
i had a extra pedal assembly for my 57 chevy..
i scavenge the spring from that...
i was a sob to install on the galaxie pedal ...
but works great.....





Raggaren did it the right way. In order to get it done quickly for now, I just got 2 medium hard about 5 inch springs from hardware store and 2 medium S hooks. Hooked the 2 springs together end to end. And via S hook one spring end went high up on brake pedal bar{I had good spot where it wont slip down) and the other end to a spot under dash on left side of steering column. Kind of mickey but very functional and out of sight til I get this brake issue figured out. ------ Also I am looking at how close my brake line steel tubes are running close to my headers. I know it does not cause the problem but I believe heating the lines up so much certainly does no good.
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[SIGPIC]

Last edited by fordwilly; 07-31-2019 at 06:06 PM.
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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 07:40 PM
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Re: Rolling Resistance As My Gal Heats Up

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Originally Posted by RAGGAREN View Post
that is real hard to replicate if you are not actually driving the car...


brake fluid get heated up from the friction by rotors and drums and then slowly expanding more and more,
the hotter brake components gets..
The brake fluid will not, or at least should not heat up on it's own. There is an initial locking, sticking, dragging condition that has to generate heat in the components. Even if it's something like the booster bad internally causing it to hold pressure when it shouldn't ( I have seen it happen on another aftermarket disk brake conversion) and dragging the brakes.

Maybe the lines being too close to the headers is causing it, if that were true, running it for a little bit on stands would yield some results. In over 20 years of automotive experience, more than a decade professionally, through all the manufacturers trainings I have been certified in, including brakes, no one ever told me that there is always "xyz" fix for "abc" problem. I'm not saying I know everything, or that I've seen everything, because I dont and I haven't. All I'm saying is having all the information possible, and doing as much diagnosis as possible, will yield the best results 99% of the time.

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