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post #31 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-03-2015, 04:11 PM
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Re: Whats the MAX you can port Victor Jr Heads??

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Originally Posted by DIAMONDBACK View Post
By the way guys; I kinda feel like my cam is a little small for my setup. I
I want more power NA: like bumping up compression to 12:1 and running E85. And stepping up to a solid roller and going from the Holley HP 750 to the HP 950 carb. How much more power is on the table through let's say decking the heads to achieve 12:1 and running the fore mentioned components?
Compression would make the car rev faster, but its only good by itself for about 3% more HP. Not sure that you can deck the heads enough to get 12:1 without hitting the valve seats or crashing the valves into the pistons.

IMHO, you really don't need to run that much compression in a street car. We don't have ready access to E85 locally so I keep my car spec'ed to run 93 octane-including at the track. Shoot for 11:1 max and have your choice of cam core custom ground to run pump gas. The 950HP would be good for about 15-20hp at the upper rpm's over the 750HP.

Adding more HP is not going to make you any faster. All is for not until you get your traction problems resolved.
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65' Stang Street/Strip. Dart 434W NA, Victor heads, G101A 4 Spd, 4:56 rear gear, on 93 octane pushing 3550lbs. [email protected]
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post #32 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-03-2015, 05:50 PM
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Re: Whats the MAX you can port Victor Jr Heads??

sHOULD ADDRESS traction issue some slicks
And figure out why its getting squirrely
then see were your at.
pULLING SOME MORE RPM IN FIRST AND SECOND A BETTER HOLE SHOT AND POSSIBLY BE PULLING HIGHER TRAP rpm.
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post #33 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-03-2015, 08:45 PM
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Re: Whats the MAX you can port Victor Jr Heads??

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Originally Posted by DIAMONDBACK View Post
My shift point at the traps are around 4,200-4,500 in 4th gear through the traps. My shift points in 1st and 2nd are cut short because it gets squirley around 5,000 RPM, but i normally spin 3rd to about 6,200. It feels nicely spread out through the gears. I'm running comp cams hyd roller part # 35-601-8. Ported Vic Jrs. 308 CFM @ 600 lift and 224 CFM @ 600 through a port matched Vic Jr. intake. The builder told me the motor would spin to 7,000, but it will stop making power @ 6,500. 35-601-8 - Thumpr? Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Camshafts According to the cam card the power band is from 2200-5900 RPM.
I don't think that cam is anywhere near optimum for your combo. The max lift is no where near your max flow on the heads. Duration is fairly short as well. Where did it stop making power when you dyno'd it?

Are you saying that even once you are underway down the strip the car breaks loose at the top of 1st and 2nd gear? My car has trouble hooking but once underway I don't have any more noticeable wheel spin.


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post #34 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-03-2015, 11:10 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Whats the MAX you can port Victor Jr Heads??

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I don't think that cam is anywhere near optimum for your combo. The max lift is no where near your max flow on the heads. Duration is fairly short as well. Where did it stop making power when you dyno'd it?

Are you saying that even once you are underway down the strip the car breaks loose at the top of 1st and 2nd gear? My car has trouble hooking but once underway I don't have any more noticeable wheel spin.
Here is the dyno sheet from when the builder finished the car and delivered it to me. Torque peaked at 4,329 RPM (527 RWTQ) and power peaked at 5,669 RPM (472 RWHP). I agree with you totally, I fell like there's room for a significantly larger cam. The builder says he installed 1.7 roller rockers to get more lift numbers, but not too much.
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2012 CTS-V Coupe stock for now. 68 Falcon Futura. 408W Boss 351 block TKO 600 5spd currie 9" 3.70 ratio. Coilover suspension. 11.912 @118 MPH with only 1.8 60'
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post #35 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-03-2015, 11:13 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Whats the MAX you can port Victor Jr Heads??

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Yes, that is the way I would interpret them. A "soft" Detroit locker would be great for street/strip car.



A little background about my car first. The first year we went to the dragstrip it had a 393w, Procomp 210 heads, custom SFT cam, Vic Jr intake, 750HP carb, 1 3/4" headers, Centerforce DF clutch, 2.78 first gear top loader, True Track with 3.70 gears, QTF 8" wide Bias streets, and Caltracs. I let the clutch fly between 3500-4000 rpm's and surprisingly the car hooked. I was able to run high 1.58 60'ers. Ran pretty consistent 12.0x until the fall and then it pulled out an [email protected] on 26x8" slicks the last night of the year. Motor made about 360hp. That combo sounds very similar to what you currently have. The following year with some tuning and a 950HP carb I was hitting 117mph in the high 11's.

Next I swapped out the Procomp 210's for a used pair of AFR 205's. With everything else being basically the same, the 393w became an entirely different animal. On the same 8" wide stiff wall drag slick I was hitting [email protected] Broke the True Trac and went with a spool. With a swap to a roller cam and a slipper racing clutch it ran 11.20's before loosing a lifter killed the block.

After that it got crazy as I mini-tubbed so that I could use the 28x10.5 stiff wall slicks (which is what I run now.) The 427w was built, the Jerico was added. 4.33 gears. Pump gas 93octane has always been a requirement. The car had 213 track runs this year and a little over 1000 miles of street driving. Believe it or not, its actually quite docile on the street.

Sorry for the long story but hopefully you will see that I started out very similar to you and was never satisfied and I am always yearning for more.
That's totally fine, I like the discussion as long as everyone else here is okay with it. I'm here to learn and like hearing your first hand account based off your real world experience so I welcome all the knowledge you have.

2012 CTS-V Coupe stock for now. 68 Falcon Futura. 408W Boss 351 block TKO 600 5spd currie 9" 3.70 ratio. Coilover suspension. 11.912 @118 MPH with only 1.8 60'
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post #36 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-04-2015, 03:35 AM
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Re: Whats the MAX you can port Victor Jr Heads??

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIAMONDBACK View Post
Here is the dyno sheet from when the builder finished the car and delivered it to me. Torque peaked at 4,329 RPM (527 RWTQ) and power peaked at 5,669 RPM (472 RWHP). I agree with you totally, I fell like there's room for a significantly larger cam. The builder says he installed 1.7 roller rockers to get more lift numbers, but not too much.
The dyno sheets look like it has a reasonably flat power curve where it counts. After looking at them, I'd say you should be shifting 6300-6400.

Gotta get it stable at the top of 1st and 2nd as there is a lot being left on the table. Put more air in the radials and see if the car is more stable at the top of the gears as an experiment. Also need to get it to hook at the line. The need of a good bias slick has already been mentioned and could be a game changer. For now, ignore the motor as it appears to be doing its job. I hope that you have a scattershield installed and a driveshaft loop as stuff can get real at any time . . . . .

Put your efforts into learning about the suspension. Tell us in detail about what your front and rear suspension consists of and how you have it adjusted--are they adjustable?

I can't stress the value of a good working suspension enough . . . . . A little tweaking could make a car a super star (or it can make it a dud.)

Dennis

65' Stang Street/Strip. Dart 434W NA, Victor heads, G101A 4 Spd, 4:56 rear gear, on 93 octane pushing 3550lbs. [email protected]

Last edited by dennis111; 11-04-2015 at 03:57 AM.
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post #37 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-04-2015, 07:12 AM
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Re: Whats the MAX you can port Victor Jr Heads??

wOULD LIKE TO SEE HEADS FLOW NUMBERS at each lift point .1 .2 .3 etc myself before selecting a cam. Things like flow only increasing say a few cfm between say .5 and .6 lift it might not make a big difference to increase lift possible to gain a bit of higher RPM power but loose a lot of low end. Dont know what valve springs your using but i run beehives 140 seat pressure and like 460 open on a hyd roller street with titianium retainers. Went from 6400 valve float dual springs to 7800 RPM with the beehive.
In my case first shift testing increasing rpm 200 RPM AT A TIME STARTLING AT 6400 got to 7200 RPM first to second with an AOD blew the 8.8 all over the road in front of the local ford dealer.

tOPPING OUT AT FIRST AND SECOND GETTING LOSE why things like front end still up real high causing the front to get loose
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post #38 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-04-2015, 12:19 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Whats the MAX you can port Victor Jr Heads??

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Originally Posted by dennis111 View Post
The dyno sheets look like it has a reasonably flat power curve where it counts. After looking at them, I'd say you should be shifting 6300-6400.

Gotta get it stable at the top of 1st and 2nd as there is a lot being left on the table. Put more air in the radials and see if the car is more stable at the top of the gears as an experiment. Also need to get it to hook at the line. The need of a good bias slick has already been mentioned and could be a game changer. For now, ignore the motor as it appears to be doing its job. I hope that you have a scattershield installed and a driveshaft loop as stuff can get real at any time . . . . .

Put your efforts into learning about the suspension. Tell us in detail about what your front and rear suspension consists of and how you have it adjusted--are they adjustable?

I can't stress the value of a good working suspension enough . . . . . A little tweaking could make a car a super star (or it can make it a dud.)
Totally agree with the 6,500 RPM shift point. I have tried 32 psi in the tires and down the track (in 3rd gear only) the whole car wanted to veer to the right really hard. I had to really hold the wheel to prevent car from going into wall. I talked to a local shop and they thought that the wheel was spinning inside the wheel. So from then on I always ran at the track around 17 psi and the car never veered like that since.

I do have a Lakewood Safety Bellhousing and no driveshaft safety loop. The exhaust x-pipe is underneath the driveshaft do if it did fall it would be caught on the exhaust (I know it's definitely not safe).

For suspension (Front) I'm running total control products front coilover conversion Total Control Products
With an ADCO sway-bar. (Rear) I'm running Cal tracs mono leafspring with cal-tracs traction bars and varishock struts.
The front was originally lowered (like almost slammed to ground) with camber and toe in for handling. The car is raked in the rear probably about an inch or two which is definitely hurting weight transfer. According to what I've heard is that I need to raise the front end up at least an inch or two. It's adjustable (with spanner wrenches), then take it to get aligned, unbolt the front sway-bar (for weight transfer)and have the camber and toe in zero'd out. The rear cal-tracs need adjustment I'm sure.
I'm currently deployed in sandland and won't be back until January, but I'm looking forward to tinkering, spending some cash, and playing with it when I get back. I also heard that running pizza cutters up front is less rolling mass, wind resistance mass and can knock off a few tenths of a second. Have you had experience with pizza cutters? Thanks again, I really appreciate the knowledge.

2012 CTS-V Coupe stock for now. 68 Falcon Futura. 408W Boss 351 block TKO 600 5spd currie 9" 3.70 ratio. Coilover suspension. 11.912 @118 MPH with only 1.8 60'
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post #39 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-04-2015, 12:34 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Whats the MAX you can port Victor Jr Heads??

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Originally Posted by turbo2256b View Post
wOULD LIKE TO SEE HEADS FLOW NUMBERS at each lift point .1 .2 .3 etc myself before selecting a cam. Things like flow only increasing say a few cfm between say .5 and .6 lift it might not make a big difference to increase lift possible to gain a bit of higher RPM power but loose a lot of low end. Dont know what valve springs your using but i run beehives 140 seat pressure and like 460 open on a hyd roller street with titianium retainers. Went from 6400 valve float dual springs to 7800 RPM with the beehive.
In my case first shift testing increasing rpm 200 RPM AT A TIME STARTLING AT 6400 got to 7200 RPM first to second with an AOD blew the 8.8 all over the road in front of the local ford dealer.

tOPPING OUT AT FIRST AND SECOND GETTING LOSE why things like front end still up real high causing the front to get loose
I don't have head flow chart or graph. The builder had them ported elsewhere and all he told me was the numbers @ 600 lift; 308 CFM and 224 CFM. By the way my car was done at R&E racing in Lancaster California just in case anyone was wondering. It took longer than I expected to complete the car, but that's a whole nother story. Seems like you know how to get the most out of your valve train. The builder did say he shimmed the valve springs to make them actuate faster. I believe they are probably matching springs for the cam: comp cams part number 35-601-8 35-601-8 - Thumpr? Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Camshafts I can check with the builder to verify though.

2012 CTS-V Coupe stock for now. 68 Falcon Futura. 408W Boss 351 block TKO 600 5spd currie 9" 3.70 ratio. Coilover suspension. 11.912 @118 MPH with only 1.8 60'
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post #40 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-04-2015, 04:27 PM
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Re: Whats the MAX you can port Victor Jr Heads??

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIAMONDBACK View Post
I talked to a local shop and they thought that the wheel was spinning inside the wheel.
???????? Don't understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIAMONDBACK View Post
I do have a Lakewood Safety Bellhousing and no driveshaft safety loop. The exhaust x-pipe is underneath the driveshaft do if it did fall it would be caught on the exhaust (I know it's definitely not safe).
The loop also keeps you from personal contact with the shaft. The shaft can beat the living crap out of a tunnel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIAMONDBACK View Post
For suspension (Front) I'm running total control products front coilover conversion Total Control Products
With an ADCO sway-bar. (Rear) I'm running Cal tracs mono leafspring with cal-tracs traction bars and varishock struts.
The front was originally lowered (like almost slammed to ground) with camber and toe in for handling. The car is raked in the rear probably about an inch or two which is definitely hurting weight transfer. According to what I've heard is that I need to raise the front end up at least an inch or two. It's adjustable (with spanner wrenches), then take it to get aligned, unbolt the front sway-bar (for weight transfer)and have the camber and toe in zero'd out. The rear cal-tracs need adjustment I'm sure.
Add 4-5 degrees of caster to that alignment and the car should go straight down the track.

The suspension, both front and rear should work freely with no bind. I am not familiar with your TCP setup, but to help weight transfer it might be advantageous to install weaker coils which wouldn't have come with a road race setup. If the front shocks are adjustable, good-especially if they are double adjustable. Not sure that raising the front end would be beneficial, but it would certainly affect the car from going straight down the track. Dropping the end of the front sway bar would be good. I eventually just left mine off.

The Calvert setup on the rear is good stuff. I suggest putting the Caltrac bar in the lower hole with zero preload (with driver's weight in the seat.) That might help stop the spinning off the line. If the rear shocks are double adjustable, that is good too. They must also be long enough so that they never bottom out at launch or else it will lead to spinning. I recommend using shackles with through bolts and nylocs. The nylocs are left a little loose on purpose so the shackles can pivot without the bolt needing to rotate. I also do the same at the front of the leaf springs too.

Is your battery mounted in the trunk? Putting it on the passenger's side helps both weight transfer and traction as does adding additional ballast.

A camera is your friend. Try to get some video of the launch and run from different angles. There is a ton of stuff to learn from them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIAMONDBACK View Post
I'm currently deployed in sandland
Thank you for your service.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIAMONDBACK View Post
I also heard that running pizza cutters up front is less rolling mass, wind resistance mass and can knock off a few tenths of a second. Have you had experience with pizza cutters?
No experience with them but would be worth a few hundredths. Tenths only if all the wheels are light weight. I'm more into the stock look and that is why my turd is so darn heavy. I run stock type steel wheels for the classic nostalgia look.

Street look with 8" rear rims:



The drag slicks are also mounted on similar 10" wide steel rims which give the car a nice rake:


Dennis

65' Stang Street/Strip. Dart 434W NA, Victor heads, G101A 4 Spd, 4:56 rear gear, on 93 octane pushing 3550lbs. [email protected]

Last edited by dennis111; 11-04-2015 at 04:34 PM.
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post #41 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-04-2015, 05:20 PM
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Re: Whats the MAX you can port Victor Jr Heads??

YOU CAN PONDER THIS A 400 cu in engine
FLOWING 255 CFM max HP wold be around 5670 RPM
flowing 300 CFM MAX HP WOULD BE AROUND 6700 RPM
Flowing 330 CFM max HP would be around 7300 RPM

DIFFERANCE IN hp BETWEEN 255 cfm and 300 cfm is 90 HP.


oVER THE YEARS I learned HP has more to do with air flow

Cams are more to do with were one wants the torq peak

I have seen were a wilder cam might gain 20 more peak HP at higher RPM but loose 40 or 50 down low
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post #42 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-04-2015, 09:59 PM
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Re: Whats the MAX you can port Victor Jr Heads??

I have pizza cutters on the front of mine as well as light weight weld draglites on the rear. I don't know what they are worth ET wise but they shaved a whopping 80lbs off of my car compared to the stock chrome GT wheels and BFG radials. I remember reading an old hotrod magazine article years ago where they did a back to back test using the light wheels vs stock steelies. It was worth about 3 tenths on a 13ish second car if I remember correctly but only a couple hundredths on a 10 second car.


1968 mustang 408W Hybrid..Burns gas and rubber!
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post #43 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-04-2015, 10:56 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Whats the MAX you can port Victor Jr Heads??

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo2256b View Post
YOU CAN PONDER THIS A 400 cu in engine
FLOWING 255 CFM max HP wold be around 5670 RPM
flowing 300 CFM MAX HP WOULD BE AROUND 6700 RPM
Flowing 330 CFM max HP would be around 7300 RPM

DIFFERANCE IN hp BETWEEN 255 cfm and 300 cfm is 90 HP.


oVER THE YEARS I learned HP has more to do with air flow

Cams are more to do with were one wants the torq peak

I have seen were a wilder cam might gain 20 more peak HP at higher RPM but loose 40 or 50 down low
Got it. Sometimes it's better to have a broader power/torque curve depending on what your goals is.

2012 CTS-V Coupe stock for now. 68 Falcon Futura. 408W Boss 351 block TKO 600 5spd currie 9" 3.70 ratio. Coilover suspension. 11.912 @118 MPH with only 1.8 60'
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post #44 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-04-2015, 11:18 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Whats the MAX you can port Victor Jr Heads??

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Originally Posted by dennis111 View Post
???????? Don't understand.



The loop also keeps you from personal contact with the shaft. The shaft can beat the living crap out of a tunnel.



Add 4-5 degrees of caster to that alignment and the car should go straight down the track.

The suspension, both front and rear should work freely with no bind. I am not familiar with your TCP setup, but to help weight transfer it might be advantageous to install weaker coils which wouldn't have come with a road race setup. If the front shocks are adjustable, good-especially if they are double adjustable. Not sure that raising the front end would be beneficial, but it would certainly affect the car from going straight down the track. Dropping the end of the front sway bar would be good. I eventually just left mine off.

The Calvert setup on the rear is good stuff. I suggest putting the Caltrac bar in the lower hole with zero preload (with driver's weight in the seat.) That might help stop the spinning off the line. If the rear shocks are double adjustable, that is good too. They must also be long enough so that they never bottom out at launch or else it will lead to spinning. I recommend using shackles with through bolts and nylocs. The nylocs are left a little loose on purpose so the shackles can pivot without the bolt needing to rotate. I also do the same at the front of the leaf springs too.

Is your battery mounted in the trunk? Putting it on the passenger's side helps both weight transfer and traction as does adding additional ballast.

A camera is your friend. Try to get some video of the launch and run from different angles. There is a ton of stuff to learn from them.



Thank you for your service.



No experience with them but would be worth a few hundredths. Tenths only if all the wheels are light weight. I'm more into the stock look and that is why my turd is so darn heavy. I run stock type steel wheels for the classic nostalgia look.

Street look with 8" rear rims:



The drag slicks are also mounted on similar 10" wide steel rims which give the car a nice rake:

Excuse the typo. I meant the wheel/rim was potentially spinning inside the tire. I had personally never heard of that happening. As for the battery it is located the trunk on the passenger side and thank you as well Sir.

2012 CTS-V Coupe stock for now. 68 Falcon Futura. 408W Boss 351 block TKO 600 5spd currie 9" 3.70 ratio. Coilover suspension. 11.912 @118 MPH with only 1.8 60'
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post #45 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-05-2015, 02:58 AM
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Re: Whats the MAX you can port Victor Jr Heads??

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Excuse the typo. I meant the wheel/rim was potentially spinning inside the tire. I had personally never heard of that happening.
I've had it happen at launch, but never at speed. For me it was caused by running tubes, which is a no-no without also running rim screws. I have successfully ran slicks without tubes and the movement on the rim is minimal. I run tubes now in my slicks for increased consistency and it also increases tire longevity as it helps strengthen the sidewalls.

Personally, I don't think that spinning is happening to your car as lowering the air pressure should cause it to be more prevalent due to the increased traction. Anyways, there is an easy way to find out for sure and the clue is in this photo:



Paint a white line with dial-in/shoe polish on the slick from a known location and check it out after some runs. I use the valve stem as a painting reference. If it is no longer aligned, the tire is spinning on the wheel. The line will also helps when video'ing to tell if and when the wheel is spinning.

Dennis

65' Stang Street/Strip. Dart 434W NA, Victor heads, G101A 4 Spd, 4:56 rear gear, on 93 octane pushing 3550lbs. [email protected]

Last edited by dennis111; 11-05-2015 at 03:03 AM.
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