Engine build advice 351w d4ae - Ford Muscle Forums : Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum
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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-28-2018, 04:15 AM Thread Starter
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Engine build advice 351w d4ae

Hi,
I live in the uk and about 18 months ago i bought a 1967 californian i6 coupe.

A mountain of work and expense later its coming along nicely towards my dream car.

Doing the work myself, had to build a garage for it after buying the car so had my work cutout but happy with the garage and its great to relax listening to rock radio and tinker with the car....

Currently im halfway through a full aaw rewire kit.

Main Things done so far :

Shelby drop with new uca's
1" front sway bar
Koni classic adjustables
Hid relayed front lights
Led rear lights
Front disk brake conversion
New steering collumn and 16:1 manual steering box. (i have a flaming river power rack and pinion kit but decided on the manual steering path to fitment issues of the new engine.)
140amp alternanator
1" lowering front springs.


Its got some [email protected] split rim alloys on it.... Front and back 225/55r17 firestone rubber, could do with narrower tires on the front but they came with the car and i like them so will keep them.

I have a 1969 302 c4 from a v8 to rebuild and swop for the i6 c4


I know i need change the rear end for minimum 8".... Likely a nine inch and 4 lug to keep the wheels.


Everything costs a fortune get here in the uk so its going to be a gradual process and ill be doing most things myself.....


Soooo.... Im getting progress made...


On to my question... Though i have loads! ?

I have managed to get hold of this beauty:

ford 351 Windsor 5.8 v8
completely rebuilt engine
Rebored block +30 the block number is 1974 model d4ae601
New +30 hypereutectic coated flat top pistons with new rings
New Uprated i beam 683g conrods with up rated bolts
Reground crankshaft +30 main bearings
+20 big end bearings
New Apr main bearing bolts
New oil pump standard with New Apr oil pump shaft

New camshaft +bearings to suit c4 gearbox
All New gaskets and seals
New cam chain +sprockets
New front pully pro balance 28oz
New hydraulic tappets

New push rods
New Rail type rockers with guides for pushrods
New Arp head bolts
Victor reinz head gaskets

I want to put a hydrolic roller cam in,
I have afr205's 58cc with hydrolic roller springs

I have a weiland stealth inlet manifold.

I have a street fighter ultra 775 vacume secondary carb.


This will be a street driven weekend musclecar which will see straight line fun and a few trackdays a year. Some motorway mileage, maybe 2500 miles a year. Not a daily driver.


I was thinking of a 408 stroker hence the 205 afrs and 775 street avenger but am hoping to save the consederable costs involved by keeping the freshly built internals as they are.

So can anyone advise on a cam and third member ratio and any other advice really to acheive a good balance with my parts. I know the heads may be a drawback for quick starts but if i can get the least boggy acceleration, classic v8 rumble and reasonably streetable with some motorway miles. I dont want it revving high on motorway.

Plus can i use the torque converter i got with the 302c4.... Or a recommendation for a streetable stall convertor ,that would be good.

This wont be raced.


Thanks in advance .


Paul


Im not competing with anyone for bragging rights... Just want a great well rounded classic musclecar grin every time i drive. ? and 400rwhp haha ?
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-28-2018, 04:27 AM Thread Starter
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Edit the total will be 2500 miles a year max, probably less and maybe 1000 motorway miles in that...
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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-28-2018, 05:01 AM
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Re: Engine build advice 351w d4ae

I have a 3.70 rear in mine, and if I had it to do over again, I would install something around 3.50. The 3.70 works out to about 3000 rpm at 60 mph , which is a little buzzy on the highway.

1966 Falcon, 347 stroker and C-4
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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-28-2018, 06:26 AM
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Re: Engine build advice 351w d4ae

If you're not use to all the 'gotchas' when building a custom engine you're not familiar with... and insist on doing it yourself... you're likely going to be in for a frustrating education. You will likely screw stuff up, which could end up costing lots of time, money and rework.

You've got a LOT of things to consider, such as what you need to do to install a hydraulic roller cam... such as distributor gears, etc. You need to make sure you know how to adjust valvetrain geometry. There are forums where people will help walk you through all this... but just realize you're in for a tedious journey.

Another option, is to buy a well matched, ready to go engine from a builder such as http://www.fordstrokers.com. They seem to do decent work.

Good Luck!
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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-28-2018, 06:56 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Engine build advice 351w d4ae

thanks ive been advised 3.25 or 3.5 before so this adds to that
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-28-2018, 06:59 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Engine build advice 351w d4ae

Quote:
Originally Posted by n2omike View Post
If you're not use to all the 'gotchas' when building a custom engine you're not familiar with... and insist on doing it yourself... you're likely going to be in for a frustrating education. You will likely screw stuff up, which could end up costing lots of time, money and rework.

You've got a LOT of things to consider, such as what you need to do to install a hydraulic roller cam... such as distributor gears, etc. You need to make sure you know how to adjust valvetrain geometry. There are forums where people will help walk you through all this... but just realize you're in for a tedious journey.

Another option, is to buy a well matched, ready to go engine from a builder such as http://www.fordstrokers.com. They seem to do decent work.

Good Luck!
Thanks for the advice, however i have the engine, heads carb ect so your advice isnt really relevant. I wont be building the engine, i have a guy to do that, the rest of the build i will have a go at, possibly outsourcing the transmission build too... so what i need is advice on parts as in cam profile and stall converter as in my question.

Regards

Thanks anyway.
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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-28-2018, 07:46 AM
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Re: Engine build advice 351w d4ae

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbit67 View Post
Thanks for the advice, however i have the engine, heads carb ect so your advice isnt really relevant. I wont be building the engine, i have a guy to do that, the rest of the build i will have a go at, possibly outsourcing the transmission build too... so what i need is advice on parts as in cam profile and stall converter as in my question.

Regards

Thanks anyway.
Cam depends on what engine displacement you settle on. Using a factory 351W block, I would recommend building a 408. Factory 351W's have a 3.5" stroke. The 4" stroke of a 408 fits great, and there are well tested kits out there.

Converter will depend on the rev range, and what you want to do with the car. If you have a lot of drag racing on slicks in mind, you'll want a loose one that allows the engine to launch higher in the rev range. If you have trips and road racing in mind, you'll want one a lot tighter.

So, in order to answer the questions, you'll need to know the displacement, rev range, and intended use. You've pretty much covered intended use, so the converter will be on the tighter side, but the rev range and displacement need to be decided on. The ideal compression ratio will also depend on the cam used. For a typical non-race build that desires a long, low maintenance service life, a mild 408 with a hydraulic roller measuring around 236 @ 0.050" on the intake and a 10" converter with around a 2800-3000 rpm stall is a good starting place for the parts you have chosen. Will yank that car around like nobody's business! Shift point will be around 6k rpm, and you'll want a compression ratio between 9:1 and 9.5:1. Any higher with a cam that size, and chances are, it will knock.
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-28-2018, 10:38 AM Thread Starter
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Hi. Thankyou for our words.

Ideally i want to keep it at 351 +.030 as the engine has been rebuilt already, getting a stroker kit plus fitment/balancing will be another 2 gran plus gbp atleast....

No racing, just street use and not a daily driver.
Lots of fun from light to light.
Rough idle for that classic sound but reasonably usuable in town traffic.

Cheers

...
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-28-2018, 12:16 PM
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Re: Engine build advice 351w d4ae

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbit67 View Post
Hi. Thankyou for our words.

Ideally i want to keep it at 351 +.030 as the engine has been rebuilt already, getting a stroker kit plus fitment/balancing will be another 2 gran plus gbp atleast....

No racing, just street use and not a daily driver.
Lots of fun from light to light.
Rough idle for that classic sound but reasonably usuable in town traffic.

Cheers

...
Okay, keep cam at 230 @ 0.050" with a lobe seperation of 110 using a carb, and around 9.5 to 1.
That being said... do you already have the pistons and heads?

Last edited by n2omike; 01-28-2018 at 12:18 PM.
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-28-2018, 02:15 PM Thread Starter
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Hi. Yes ive got afr 205's, flat top pistons and street avenger 775 ultra vacume sec carb. Cheers.
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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-28-2018, 02:16 PM Thread Starter
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New +30 hypereutectic coated flat top pistons with new rings
New Uprated i beam 683g conrods with up rated bolts
Reground crankshaft +30 main
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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-28-2018, 03:45 PM
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Re: Engine build advice 351w d4ae

Those heads come in both 58cc (most common) and 72cc.
58cc heads with the flat top pistons will come out to around 11 to 1... which is too high for pump gas and a cam that has good street manners. 72cc heads with flat tops will come out to around 9.4.
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 06:27 AM Thread Starter
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Hi im aiming to keep it at
.030 over so 357. Street use 205 afr heads , 775 cm street avenger ultra carb. Rebuilt c4. 9" rear. 3.25 or 3.5 gears.
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 08:34 AM
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Re: Engine build advice 351w d4ae

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbit67 View Post
Hi im aiming to keep it at
.030 over so 357. Street use 205 afr heads , 775 cm street avenger ultra carb. Rebuilt c4. 9" rear. 3.25 or 3.5 gears.
We need to know the combustion chamber volume of the AFR 205 heads you are using. If they are the most common 58cc variants, THE COMPRESSION RATIO WILL BE TOO HIGH when used with flat top pistons. It WILL knock and ping badly. You will need to use race gas.

Your options are to either use more of a 'race' cam, which will bleed off more cylinder pressure, or to drop the compression ratio down to a more suitable number. There is no 'magic' camshaft that solves all your problems.

A camshaft that would work with your compression ratio on pump gas would produce little power below 3k rpm, and would want shifted at close to 7k rpm. It would require a very loose torque converter, that would be a pain to drive on the street.
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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-31-2018, 06:19 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for your input. The afr 205's are 58cc with hydr roller springs. All good info.
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