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  Topic Review (Newest First)
08-03-2010 10:46 PM
slepasova
Re: Toploader Input Shaft Replacement

Hello everyone. I have a 200 c.i. 6 cyl engine Mustang and I recently pulled the tranny down and found out I am missing the pilot bearing. Does anyone know if there was a pilot bearing to begin with or did the mechanic who worked on it last forget to put it back?
08-28-2009 09:09 AM
dennis111
Re: Toploader Input Shaft Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsmk View Post
hi dennis i am trying to do the same thing to my top loader, but what clutch did you use my old set up has a 11 inch clutch i am trying to use my pressure plate.

I use a special racing type clutch setup and just replaced the disc with a similar one.

I suppose that your clutch is a stock type and that you want a fiber-like stock type disc. For an 11" clutch disc that will fit the 1 3/8" large input shaft, I would check out small block Econoline (E-100 or E-150 series) trucks with a 4 speed. An 11" disc was used in some of them from the early 60's through the late 70's.

Here is a similar one that can be ordered through Summit: Hays 40-118 - Hays Clutch Discs - Overview - SummitRacing.com
08-28-2009 06:00 AM
bsmk
Re: Toploader Input Shaft Replacement

hi dennis i am trying to do the same thing to my top loader, but what clutch did you use my old set up has a 11 inch clutch i am trying to use my pressure plate.
05-07-2009 02:44 AM
dennis111
Re: Toploader Input Shaft Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcdaniel01 View Post
Hey looking and pleading and searching i need a 3 spd overdrive toploader like come in the granada any leads any help would be appreciated??????
They are pretty common. Lots of them turn up on ebay and FEandgoingbroke (on this board) has/had one for sale in the pacific northwest. Hopefully you posted your request in the wanted ads of this site.
05-06-2009 08:03 PM
Mcdaniel01
Re: Toploader Input Shaft Replacement

Hey looking and pleading and searching i need a 3 spd overdrive toploader like come in the granada any leads any help would be appreciated??????
02-08-2009 04:02 PM
dennis111
Re: Toploader Input Shaft Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosse View Post
Thx Dennis111, great article. Didnīt know they had BB inputs for SBīs. I also broke an output shaft first. I hope Woodys and Jaysrecipes donīt brake the input, or i kinda hope they do ...
Thank you Mosse.

Yep, your right--the new combo just might break the bank.
02-08-2009 12:21 PM
Mosse
Re: Toploader Input Shaft Replacement

Thx Dennis111, great article. Didnīt know they had BB inputs for SBīs. I also broke an output shaft first. I hope Woodys and Jaysrecipes donīt brake the input, or i kinda hope they do ...
01-29-2009 08:52 AM
dennis111
Re: Toploader Input Shaft Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by n2omike View Post
Special tools are needed since that long shaft is in the way.

Dennis showed how to remove the input without removing the front bearing first by dropping the cluster gear. Maybe he'll share how he removes the rear bearing.
Nothing special needed to remove the rear bearing either, but you must do a complete disassembly of the case.

Drop the counter gear and remove the input shaft as above. Next remove the shift forks, trunions, springs, and shift rails in order to remove the complete output shaft assembly out of the case. Reverse gear can remain in the case. Remove the countershaft. Then remove the C Clip that holds the bearing on the output shaft. Set the casing on end and put the whole output shaft back into place. Using a block of wood and a big hammer, hit the end of the output shaft which will drive the bearing off the shaft similar to what was done with the input shaft.

To reinstall that bearing, I put the assembled output shaft back into the case and use a 6" piece of heavy pipe as a slide hammer to drive the bearing into place. The pipe must be able to go over the output shaft and yet only contact the inner race of the bearing. After the bearing starts on the shaft, you can set he bearing partually in the case, ensuring that it is sticking out maybe 3/8" from where it normally would rest up against the C Clip that fits around the outer diameter of the bearing.

It really does work and be sure to use a little lubricating spray on the shaft and the inner race before driving the bearing on. If I have gone this far, I normally remove the needle bearings out of the countergear, clean them up and reinstall them with a grease packing then put the dummy shaft back in. The grease helps keep the needles in place and it is much, much easier later on when it is time to install the countershaft in the counter gear.
01-27-2009 05:57 PM
n2omike
Re: Toploader Input Shaft Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDJIRICEK View Post
I take it that this convuluted contraption is only used to pull the bearing from the shaft and not from the case?
Yes. That bearing is pressed onto the mainshaft, not the case. The problem with removing it, is that long mainshaft! Most pullers will not work with that long shaft in the way!

Traditionally, the front and rear main bearings... the ones at the front and rear of the case... are removed before the transmission is dis-assembled. There are ways around it, but that's the way it is traditionally done. Special tools are needed since that long shaft is in the way.

Dennis showed how to remove the input without removing the front bearing first by dropping the cluster gear. Maybe he'll share how he removes the rear bearing. There's a small town Ford dealership two miles away from my house, so I would just run down there and let them use their tool. (different than the one shown) They are friendly, and I know a lot of them, so it would generally cost me from between $0 and $12 to get them both pulled off... as it didn't take them but a couple minutes.
01-27-2009 12:31 PM
SDJIRICEK
Re: Toploader Input Shaft Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by n2omike View Post
On a 4-speed, both the front and rear bearings press fit onto the input and output shafts, but slide freely into the case.

On the last couple I did, I chocked the input and main shafts into a large drill press and used sanding cloth on the shafts until the bearings would -just- slide on and off for easier assembly/disassembly.

I take it that this convuluted contraption is only used to pull the bearing from the shaft and not from the case?

01-26-2009 07:55 PM
n2omike
Re: Toploader Input Shaft Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDJIRICEK View Post
One thing I couldn't figure out with my rebuild was how loose the output shaft bearing should be? On the 4spd. it seems to be a pressfit into the case. On the 3spd it seems to be a drop in into the case? any thoughts on this?
On a 4-speed, both the front and rear bearings press fit onto the input and output shafts, but slide freely into the case.

On the last couple I did, I chocked the input and main shafts into a large drill press and used sanding cloth on the shafts until the bearings would -just- slide on and off for easier assembly/disassembly.
01-26-2009 07:27 PM
SDJIRICEK
Re: Toploader Input Shaft Replacement

EXCELLENT thread.

We need more on the older transmissions. A lot of good info. I recently rebuilt my 3 speed toploader and it's a bear to dig up info on these transmissions. Those needle bearings are a pain to dig out of the case if they drop out of the race . Have you ever rebuilt one of the 3 spd. toploaders? One thing I couldn't figure out with my rebuild was how loose the output shaft bearing should be? On the 4spd. it seems to be a pressfit into the case. On the 3spd it seems to be a drop in into the case? any thoughts on this? The rebuild manuals really don't seem to adress proper case tolerances and bearing sizes.

On a side note a decent source for aftermarket gears for both the 4spd. and 3spd. toploaders is TransStar. It took me 4 months of searching to find this source. It seems that the rebuild shops around here regard parts sourcing, for internals, as some sort of proprietory secret. Maybe some of you could donate your vast experience and start some sort of sticky for toploader parts sourcing. It sure would be appreciated and well used. Of course I referenced all the high profile sources like 4speedtoploaders.com, 5speeds.com and toploaderheaven.com. . Although these sites have a lot of the gearing and hard parts it has been impossible for me to source individual parts like needle bearings, detents, detent springs, and case plugs.
01-25-2009 02:03 PM
FATNFAST
Re: Toploader Input Shaft Replacement

I just think once you get up to a certain HP level, you begin to find limitations of all equipment stock or High performance parts. It's a viscous circle. You get your drivetrain to hold the power you have, then you go for more power and start breaking stuff again. LOL. I've candy caned input shafts, broke output shafts, axles, yokes, you name it! If it could be broke I broke it! hehe. Like I said in my article on the C4, after all the money I had spent over the years keeping a 4-speed in mine...I could have bought a Lenco or Liberty Transmission. You will always continue to find the weak link. That's Racin'. Output is next. Now that the input is not going to give, you'll just keep transferring the weak link on back.
01-25-2009 01:41 PM
dennis111
Re: Toploader Input Shaft Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by n2omike View Post
Excellent Article!

I'll probably be upgrading the input shaft... and probalby the main/output shaft on my car as well.

You probalby don't want to hear this, but I've never twisted an input shaft, but did break the main/output shaft! It broke within the tailhousing, and took it out at the same time... I hope that was a 'fluke', and you don't have a similar issue.

The best dummy shaft I've used is a piece of 7/8" wooden dowell rod. It fits perfect.

Thanks, and good luck!
Thanks Mike.

I actually wanted to replace my output shaft over the winter but time and $$ seem to be running out.

Hmmm, IIRC FatNFast had the same issue with the output shafts and like Mike, he uses nitrous too. Is this some weird occurrence that occurs mostly in the giggly gas world???
01-25-2009 12:55 PM
n2omike
Re: Toploader Input Shaft Replacement

Excellent Article!

I'll probably be upgrading the input shaft... and probalby the main/output shaft on my car as well.

You probalby don't want to hear this, but I've never twisted an input shaft, but did break the main/output shaft! It broke within the tailhousing, and took it out at the same time... I hope that was a 'fluke', and you don't have a similar issue.

The best dummy shaft I've used is a piece of 7/8" wooden dowell rod. It fits perfect.

Thanks, and good luck!
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