347 Stroker Pistons - Page 2 - Ford Muscle Forums : Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum
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post #16 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-07-2015, 01:56 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 347 Stroker Pistons

Just realized need subscription to see rest of the article that is what i meant.

I did not know about torque plates good tip there indeed.

What pistons use buttons for the ring support.

Daft question why do they do two different diameter rod ends.

Jon

Last edited by jonnys; 01-07-2015 at 02:11 PM.
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post #17 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-07-2015, 03:51 PM
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Re: 347 Stroker Pistons

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Originally Posted by jonnys View Post
I did not know about torque plates good tip there indeed.
its really a little bit anal to do that but i like to do it on some apps especially strokers like this and especially if i am using low expansion pistons and even more so if i am using higher torque on the head bolts than stock . . it only costs me around $45.00 more to get it done this why so its also pretty cheap . . i also run most of my engines at 180 or 185 as opposed to 192 for several reasons.


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What pistons use buttons for the ring support.
i don't know nowadays, perhaps psig would, but again, good rings will be a good defense against oil burning . . also having someone that knows what they are doing when boring and honing . . some shops accept a bore that might be tapered by .0005" or more when they are done . . others shops will fix this on a fancy power hone machine.


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Daft question why do they do two different diameter rod ends.

Jon
xlnt question, lol.


i also saw you mention motorcycles . . i was in charge of the r and d department for a very big motorcycle mfg for several years and did a bit if racing myself so i am familiar with weisco pistons..

Last edited by barnett468; 01-07-2015 at 04:00 PM.
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post #18 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-08-2015, 09:48 AM
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Re: 347 Stroker Pistons

Barnett pretty much covered it all, but here's my extra penny of thoughts. The two pin diameters are Ford (.912) and Chevy (.927). The reason is that half of every set of SBC pistons are identical to SBF pistons, due to where the valve notches are. Being able to use a Chevy piston greatly increases your choice of off-the-shelf pistons, and/or allows machinery set-up for them to be used for Fords as-well. Same with the rods. So they make both rods and pistons with both pin sizes to allow this swapping. They also make them all with circlip grooves, so they can either use circlips (floating pin) or press-fit pins, depending on the rod type.

While not as common today, it was often the only choice early-on to resize (pressed pin) or "bush" (floating pin) the rod end to take a Chevy piston that would work best. 30 years ago, SBC stuff was everywhere and sometimes the only choice, much more than today. Mopar pistons had huge wrist pins (.984) and the rod end would get too thin when re-bushing, so they were rarely used unless Mopar rods were also used in certain Ford strokers.

Torque plates and block heating are to allow machining under 'running' conditions. Since the head bolts and head clamping pressure distort the bore slightly when torqued, and a warm engine also changes shape slightly, using torque plates with block heating will give a finished bore that is perfectly round when running. Otherwise, the bore is only perfect when cold if machined that way, and never perfectly round after the bolts are torqued.

This is one reason performance engines can have a very low leak-down (blow-by) compared to a Mom & Pop engine. It's all in the details. I'm one of the anal types, and always use torque plates and heating if the engine is for true performance, racing, or me. If it's just a cruiser that has a lumpy cam and wears a stroker badge for status (typical street car) - whatever. I agree with Barnett that they all run OK in Mom & Pop mode, make plenty of power for that, and do the job fine.

David

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post #19 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-08-2015, 02:46 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 347 Stroker Pistons

Can I ask what you mean by block heating.

All good advice thank you.

Im not interested in pub talk this car is really sleeper I have tried to hide all the mods just trying to build best road car that i can that is good fun and can be used on circuit couple of times a year when I feel like it.

My main bike is old gsxr 1100 which is so special with so much hand made trick stuff and one off parts i have made and done some quite radical stuff. Its making 171 hp 98 ftlbs at back wheel normal aspirated on pump gas its real animal got some good lap times out of it. Hurt myself couple years ago lost little interest in it and being messing with it for so long cant get motivated with it, probably be back when sun comes out again.

One final thing the torque plates what do they look like for fitting and do you machine block to fit them.
Ill shut up now ha ha.

Jon

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post #20 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-08-2015, 05:21 PM
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Re: 347 Stroker Pistons

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Originally Posted by jonnys View Post
All good advice thank you.

My main bike is old gsxr 1100 which is so special with so much hand made trick stuff and one off parts i have made and done some quite radical stuff. Its making 171 hp 98 ftlbs at back wheel normal aspirated on pump gas its real animal got some good lap times out of it.

Can I ask what you mean by block heating.

One final thing the torque plates what do they look like for fitting and do you machine block to fit them. Ill shut up now ha ha.

Jon
yeah, some guys here like psig can bring the tech . . you won;t go wring with the advice you get here as you might from somewhere else . . i bet you never even saw the word torque plate in any of the other posts or magazines you read yet it is not an unusually super special, expensive techno thing . . this is just one example if how incomplete a lot of the forums and magazines are.

Typical engine build article.

"Buy trick flow heads and a big a_s roller cam and don't even ask what rings come with the stroker kit [because all rings are the same] and it will hail a-s . . and by all means, do not check the balance or crank and rod sizes because they always come properly sized from the country that can't even build a rocket that will stay in the air for more than an hour, if that long." . . yeah ok, lol.


block heating is just as it sounds . . they heat the block close to typical operating temp before they bore it, but this is typically done in conjunction with torque plates . . in other words, use the torque plates if you are anal . . add heating of the block with the torque plates if you are super duper anal . . nothing wrong with being anal if you can afford it, but you might be spending money that is really unnecessary in some instances . . as far as being anal about the block, imo, the more perfect the bore is under actual driving conditions, the longer it will last . . it will often have an increase in power too but for street apps the amount is irrelevant and nearly negligible but it might make you can sleep better at night.

if a shop does not have torque plates, i might be hesitant to use them . . that being said, it might be unusual for them to have torque plates for american cars over there . . it is just around a flat 2" thick plate with holes that are bigger than the bore and they bolt it down to spec just like the cylinder head.

yeah the suzi 1100 will get with the program even in stock mode and with your hp boost it will be pretty nasty, especially if it is one of the early models . . they were around 75 lbs lighter than the later ones . . i worked for the "ninja" company, lol.

.
.
.

Last edited by barnett468; 01-08-2015 at 06:10 PM.
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post #21 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-09-2015, 04:47 AM
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Re: 347 Stroker Pistons

Very informative thread in regards to the differences in how to arrive at a 347 stroker. The information about the differences in pin size, how they have addressed the issues with the pin/ring intersection.

You see all the time on forums the debate of which stroker; the 331 vs. the 347 with some citing fears of oil consumption vs. others don't worry about it.
This thread tells you why not to worry about it.
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post #22 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-11-2015, 09:21 AM Thread Starter
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Re: 347 Stroker Pistons

Im so glad you mentioned pin size I have rods which are .927 so thank you mentioning this I was looking at rods that were this size but more by luck then judgement.

The machine guy who doing my block is proper old skool his machine work is precise everything he does is super accurate and as ex toolmaker myself I know he is good. But if asked him to machine block heated think he would tell me to get lost, but I can understand what you say.

Quick question Barnett what did you mean by "i also run most of my engines at 180 or 185 as opposed to 192 for several reasons."

Time to shop for pistons, I reckon.
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post #23 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-11-2015, 09:29 AM Thread Starter
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Re: 347 Stroker Pistons

I would like to thank you guys for your time its appreciated.

My car is the 65 car featured in the dvd produced by the speed channel called ford muscle, victory by design.
My car was used in the filming of it where they comparing 65 car to 2005 car where Alain de Cadenet drove car round small hill climb circuit in wales Uk and had just finished the main restore was auto car here and its now 5 speed manual amongst so many other things but still looks exactly the same as in this program.

Jon
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post #24 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-11-2015, 11:59 AM
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Re: 347 Stroker Pistons

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... Time to shop for pistons, I reckon.
Perhaps, if you have done the prior steps. The choice of piston and resulting compression ratio is primarily based on:
  1. The chosen fuel. After determining the primary use of the engine and operating requirements, this choice is the basis for the entire engine build.
  2. The chosen camshaft and timing, based on a bunch of factors, and determined by #1.
  3. Other compression modifiers, such as deck height, actual chamber CCs, head material, induction temperatures and pressure, etc.
While builders often swap steps, it then becomes a compromise, rather than a choice of the best part. So, plan as much as you can, by answering as much as you can, and then make your parts list based on those choices and resulting plan. For example, by knowing the fuel and chosen camshaft to meet performance goals, The heads can be chosen, and then the dynamic compression can be calculated to fit those well for best performance, which will then tell you the static compression (piston choices) you can make. Whew.

This is important, as your block machining cannot be done correctly until you know what you're putting in it, what dimensions those parts are, and the clearances and finishes they need to work right. You can't determine what exact bore diameter you need until you know what pistons you will use, what they're made from, and each of their diameters. The finish that should be used on the bores is then unknown until you know what ring material and type you are using.

What Ra finish should the block decks have? Well first the deck height itself depends on the complete rotating assembly you're using and head gasket thickness. Then the finish needs to be the correct one for the gasket in the previous step, as (for example) MLS and composite gaskets should have deck finishes specific to the type, to help avoid leakage or blown gaskets. And the list goes on, with answers necessary far in excess of grocery-getter engines, if the engine is to perform to it's full capability.

Machining is one of the last steps in a build, and based on all this stuff that goes before it. Take your time, and focus on what you need the engine to do, and the build plan will take shape.

David

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post #25 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-11-2015, 02:35 PM
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Re: 347 Stroker Pistons

as far as piston brand goes, if you are not running a blower, i would run the low silicone type pistons like the je srps or mahles.

as far as rings go, i would run good mahles on mahle pistons or the je's i posted on je pistons.

measure the pistons before boring . . as mentioned, read the instructions very carefully . . i like to bore them in the tight side and break them in for 500 miles before i beat on it and keep the engine cool with a good cooling system and the 180-185 thermostats.

the mahles are not normal pistons . . they have a special coating so they get bored to extremely tight tolerances . . do not bore them looser than spec . . mercedes uses them . . most piston mfgs give different tolerances for mild street, high perf street, and another for racing . . i don not know if mahle does . . i would contact them directly for clearance info if there is only one spec given

as you know from your bikes, running a tight bore hard on a hot engine will not be pretty . . patience is a virtue and engine saver . . this is obviously not a bike you can re-ring in a few hours plus i would guess you do not want to rebuild it again...ever, lol.

after the tight bore and slow break in, these rings will last a very, very long time.

i would be a bit hesitant about doing a full plateau finish especially if your guy is nit experienced at it . . i would prefer to have greater likely hood of a good ring seal and give up an additional 10,000 miles of ring life if the rings will last for maybe 60 or 70k anyway.

be aware that many rings require "file" fitting . . i have done this a zillion times but i hate it . . unless yiu have done it and have the proper tool you might consider buying pre-fit rings . . it is eady to break the moly off the ring . . after grinding, the edges need to be debured . . one problem with this is that je does not have pre fit rings for these pistons for some reason.

after the break in, i would seriously consider switching to royal m purple xpr or xps oil . . it has a boat load of zddp and other fancy stuff.

i don't believe in 5w-15 oils for street cars . . even though it is synthetic, i would run around 15w-30 . . you will maybe get 2 million miles out of your engine with it or at least more than you would with good non synthetic.

i would not use mobil 1.

Last edited by barnett468; 01-11-2015 at 02:49 PM.
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post #26 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-12-2015, 12:42 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 347 Stroker Pistons

All very good advice.
Oil wise on bike i use ams oil or motul.
In car i use Torqo.

I have drawn up engine with what im thinking with quench etc, for head gasket thickness I have used 0.042" felpro. I do not know thickness of other gaskets.
Fuel wise nothing special normal pump fuel.

Jon
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post #27 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-12-2015, 04:24 PM
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Re: 347 Stroker Pistons

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Originally Posted by jonnys View Post
All very good advice.
Oil wise on bike i use ams oil or motul.
In car i use Torqo.

I have drawn up engine with what im thinking with quench etc, for head gasket thickness I have used 0.042" felpro. I do not know thickness of other gaskets.
Fuel wise nothing special normal pump fuel.

Jon
if your pistons are more than .005" below the block surface you might consider running thinner ones . . cometic makes them but they are very pricey . . if you but cometics you can get them the same size as your bore which is nice sand preferred but a bit anal for a street car . .most fel pro type gaskets have a large 4.100 id which seems a bit dumb to me since you can't bore a windsor to more than .060.

you can run quench/squish clearance as low as .035" with decent parts and less than 8,000 rpm . . .042 is the max i like to see . . some others don't consider "quench" at all and often have as much as .060 on na engines.
.

Last edited by barnett468; 01-12-2015 at 04:28 PM.
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post #28 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-03-2015, 02:06 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 347 Stroker Pistons

After much consideration i have gone for Mahle pistons and will deck block to suit.
Just waiting for them to arrive.

Thanks Jon.
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post #29 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-08-2015, 08:40 PM
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Re: 347 Stroker Pistons

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After much consideration i have gone for Mahle pistons and will deck block to suit.
Just waiting for them to arrive.

Thanks Jon.
nice! . . don't scratch the coating.

post photos
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post #30 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-15-2015, 10:31 AM Thread Starter
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Re: 347 Stroker Pistons

Well pistons are having to be sent again paperwork or something so still waiting.

So working on bike just made billet engine breather that sits between rear frame rails.

Jon
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