352 to a Stroker - Page 2 - Ford Muscle Forums : Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #16 of 82 (permalink) Old 09-08-2015, 02:23 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,260
Re: 352 to a Stroker

.

CUSTOM PISTONS

I just talked to Race Tec because I had to call them regarding some other pistons and I asked about custom pistons for you app and have posted the info below.

Race Tec was started by the previous owner of JE Pistons and they make very high quality pistons at a very reasonable price . . My friend Randy, whom worked at JE for many years now works there also . . If you call for info, anyone can help you, however, Randy knows most everything without having to look it up and he is a local race guy so he is extremely knowledgeable.

They make pistons from 4032 or 2618 material and said the 4032 would be fine for your application which is the material I previously suggested.

The custom pistons made from 4032 material are still only $695.00 and are called AUTO TEC . . The pistons made from 2618 material are $1034.00 and are called RACE TEC . . Dealers that buy in volume get $100.00 off.

Since these pistons are $155.00 less than the estimate I gave you, the previous estimated stroker crank total I posted will obviously be $155.00 lower.

They said their standard dish top is round with a quench ring around it . . Since both the Eddy heads and your heads have a quench pad in the chamber, I asked if they can make the top of the piston the same shape as the head chamber so it could utilize the full quench pad area in the head and they said no problem and that it would not cost any extra . . Some aftermarket pistons with a dish are made with an offset quench pad for this reason . . Some people debate the benefit of the quench pad or using a minimum squish clearance but I have always adhered to this clearance.

Here’s the specs I gave them which are close to what you would need for the 4.125 stroke crank and connecting rods I posted.

a. Pin diameter .990”

b. Compression height 1.4085” . . This puts it at 0 deck height with a 10.17" block . . You can have the block surface squared to the crank so the compression in each cylinder is even, however, that might be a little overkill for your app . . It might cost around $200.00 to do that . . You would need to calculate what final compression height you need once the block is done . . Either they, or your machinist, can to this for you.

c. The pin will be around .100 below the oil ring with this compression height.

d. 20 cc dish gives 9.66 compression with 4.030 bore, .003” deck height and 70 cc combustion chambers.

e. 4.030" diameter, but can be made to any diameter you want for the same price.

f. 1/16" ring thickness, but can be made to any thickness you want.

g. gas ports included

h. They have two basic skirt shapes which are the “bat wing” type which uses a narrow piston pin and the more traditional type with the wide pin and more skirt area . . I would ask them if it makes sense to use the design with more skirt area with the 4032 material for your app.


These are their two different skirt designs . . I would use the first one for your app.

................................


.............................. The one below is the "bat wing" design.



.
.

Last edited by barnett468; 09-10-2015 at 12:46 AM.
barnett468 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17 of 82 (permalink) Old 09-08-2015, 05:38 PM
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 3,754
Re: 352 to a Stroker

Race Tec is indeed a very good piston and hard to beat for pricing and ease in building custom parts.

70 Sportsroof, 427 FE/489 cid, TKO-600, 31 spline 4.10, A/C. modified Mass-flo EFI/reprogrammed A9L/CnC ported Victor.
My427stang is offline  
post #18 of 82 (permalink) Old 09-08-2015, 06:45 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 24
Re: 352 to a Stroker

Thanks a ton, both you guys! Your input is exactly what I've been looking for. I've been putting a lot of study into this and want to get it right when I pull the trigger. I really want to use the 352 because the car is completely original and in fantastic shape, and I guess there's just something about keeping it that way and trying to get the most out of it that I can. I like the idea of the 4.30 bore, 4.125 crank, and custom pistons. Your input has definitely given me a good starting point!
duke1622 is offline  
 
post #19 of 82 (permalink) Old 09-08-2015, 07:33 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,260
Re: 352 to a Stroker

Quote:
Originally Posted by duke1622 View Post
Thanks a ton, both you guys! Your input is exactly what I've been looking for. I've been putting a lot of study into this and want to get it right when I pull the trigger. I really want to use the 352 because the car is completely original and in fantastic shape, and I guess there's just something about keeping it that way and trying to get the most out of it that I can. I like the idea of the 4.30 bore, 4.125 crank, and custom pistons. Your input has definitely given me a good starting point!
No prob, you're welcome . . it's fun to see projects like this and fun to help spend someone elses money.

i have a bit more stuff i will be posting soon tonight.

keep in mind that you can even go just .010 or .020 over for the same price if your cylinders are good enough which will leave even MORE of the cylinder so you can likely bore it at least two times more if youn need, plus, as i mentioned, it will be easier to cool.

if you want to keep your your ORIG block forever and ever, i would do one of the custom stroker builds i posted . . its all common stuff except for the ultra cool custom pistons which are only a paultry $150.00 more than the probes.

i will tell you now that a lot of guys run race tec pistons in 1,000 hp plus cars, but they dont really advertise much, which is why a lot of people havent heard of them . . they rely on a lot of word of mouth advertising, and when you do that, your product better not fail.

i would gladly give up the few extra hp i would get from boring a cylinder in a stock engine another .050" or more for the obvious benefits of boring it as little as possible.
.
.

Last edited by barnett468; 09-08-2015 at 07:54 PM.
barnett468 is offline  
post #20 of 82 (permalink) Old 09-08-2015, 07:49 PM
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 3,754
Re: 352 to a Stroker

Quote:
Originally Posted by duke1622 View Post
Thanks a ton, both you guys! Your input is exactly what I've been looking for. I've been putting a lot of study into this and want to get it right when I pull the trigger. I really want to use the 352 because the car is completely original and in fantastic shape, and I guess there's just something about keeping it that way and trying to get the most out of it that I can. I like the idea of the 4.30 bore, 4.125 crank, and custom pistons. Your input has definitely given me a good starting point!
You do mean 4.03 bore right?

BTW the way I can't help but share my opinion one more time on the bore and stroke. FE blocks can split cylinders in extreme overbore cases, but I have never seen one with a cooling problem due to bore, the heat just isn't in that part of the cylinder.

That doesn't mean I don't like to save a bore, because I do, cylinder bore shape is critical to ring seal, and the more stable the bore is the longer the build will last and the more efficient it will be, so if you decide to go smaller on the bore, it's not bad in any way, it's just being more conservative than you need to be on this engine family.

The crank though, pass at your own risk. An out of the box Eagle is just not a very impressive piece, I have had them in my hands and keep going back to SCAT. It may last, it may balance, or it may need machine work and in some cases they have came apart. For some reason this forum doesn't like to hear this, but the best I can say is what I have said already, after that, odds are luck will be with you, especially at low power levels, and I truly hope it is

70 Sportsroof, 427 FE/489 cid, TKO-600, 31 spline 4.10, A/C. modified Mass-flo EFI/reprogrammed A9L/CnC ported Victor.

Last edited by My427stang; 09-08-2015 at 08:04 PM.
My427stang is offline  
post #21 of 82 (permalink) Old 09-08-2015, 08:00 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,260
Re: 352 to a Stroker

.
I thought you might find the following dyno test interesting . . i found it on the net . . Basically if you stroke your engine to 406 or 420 ci and use your box stock, unported heads, with the stock valves, and stock intake, but install headers, a good carb and a COMP CAMS XE274H cam, you will get more tq and hp than he did throughout the entire rpm range, which means you will have a bit more power at low rpm’s than he did which it sounds to me like what you are looking for . . Not only that, you can get around the same power that he has but with a slightly smaller cam like the comp XE268H, which will mean it will have a milder idle than his if that’s what you want.


I have an XE268H in my 428CJ and have used them in stock 390 engines . . The engines sound like they have a slight cam but not more than a high perf production car would, and the engines were just a hair rough at idle so you knew it had a cam but it was FAR from rowdy or obnoxious.

The co,p XE series cams as well as the 270S cam that deeproots mentioned earlier, are all non roller cams which will be around $350.00 less than a roller cam and lifters . . If you are not on a budget, I would probably use a mild hydraulic [maintenance free] roller cam.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182...o+Test+Results

10.5:1 compression
Comp XE274H cam
ford holley 735 cfm 428 cj carb
Crank, rods, distributor, manifold, carb and exhaust are stock factory original pieces.

We made 5 pulls on the Dyno using several interesting combinations. Here are the results:

Pull 1 (w/factory cast-iron exhaust manifolds) but aftermarket carb
Peak HP 322.6 @ 5100 RPM (Torque 332.2)
peak Torque 376.7 @ 3000 RPM

pull 2 (same as above)
Peak HP 322.8 @ 5200 RPM (Torque 326.0)
Peak Torque 378.7 @ 2900 RPM

Pull 3 (w/super stock headers)
Peak HP 370.5 @ 5200 RPM (Torque 374.2)
Peak Torque 432.9 @ 3100 RPM
Headers gave us an incremental 47.9 HP!!!!!

Pull 4 (w/super stock headers & carb replacement Stock Eliminator Holley 780)
Peak HP 375.3 @ 5200 RPM (Torque 379.1)
Peak Torque 441.4 @ 3100 RPM [/SIZE]
carb swap gave us an incremental 5HP & 8.5 CBTrq.

Pull 5 (w/super stock headers & carb replacement Stock Eliminator Quick Fuel 780)
Peak HP 378.0 @ 5200 RPM (Torque 381.8)
peak Torque 445.8 @ 3200 RPM

While fat, the brand new Quick Fuel NHRA Stock/Super Stock legal carb gave us an incremental 3HP & 4.4 CBTrq. While still room for improvement & fine tuning, the new Quick Fuel delivers an advantage over the stock Holley.[/SIZE]
Dyno video with stock exhaust manifolds.




.

Last edited by barnett468; 09-08-2015 at 08:40 PM.
post #22 of 82 (permalink) Old 09-08-2015, 08:55 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,260
Re: 352 to a Stroker

.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duke1622 View Post
How about the 352 heads, are they worth a rebuild?
CYLINDER HEADS

Here’s some info and prices in my area for cylinder head work in case you are considering using yours to save some money or keep the appearance more original but there's nothing wrong with the Eddy heads for your app and stock vs Eddys, the Eddys are the way to go.

Imo, based on my understanding of what you want to get out of your engine, your heads will provide what you want/need even with the bigger displacement from a stroker kit . . They have decent ports and don’t flow much less than the Eddy’s in stock form . . If bigger valves are installed and just minor work is done in to bowls, which is often called “pocket porting”, they will actually flow more than the eddy’s.

One thing you obviously give up is the aluminum head, however, if you don’t bore your engine out far, it will be easier to keep it running cool which may in turn reduce the potential for detonation if you run high compression.
Also, if you run a squish/quench clearance of around .035 to .042, it will reduce the potential for detonation even though it will increase the compression.

I occasionally try to make the squish clearance around .035" but I usually have to use Cometic head gaskets that cost around $90.00 each . . the cool thing about these other than the fact they come in a few different thicknesses, they also come in sizes that have the same, or similar size to the engine bore.

As you may be starting to see, everything has an affect on other things so everything is related to everything else.

For example, I am a freak for making engines run at no more than 190 degrees, but it sometimes requires a very big and very expensive cooling . . I also like to keep the intake manifold and carb as cool as possible so if the intake has a heat cross over I will block it and I occasionally also install thin phenolic spacers or thick carb gaskets . . in effect, the cooler air charge, will not only increase power a hair, it will also reduce the potential for detonation a hair, however, I live where it never gets extremely cold.

NEW VALVES ………………………………. $125.00 . . any size
VALVE SPRINGS ………………………….. $125.00
POCKET PORTING ……………………….. $400.00 . . optional
NEW GUIDES INSTALLED …………….. $160.00
HARDENED SEATS INSTALLED …….. $180.00 . . optional if yours are not wasted but isn’t a bad idea anyway at least on the exhaust side.
VALVE JOB ………………………………….. $400.00 . . a pair
SURFACE HEADS …………………………... $60.00 . . a pair
TOTAL ……………………………………… $14050.00

NEW EDDY HEADS …………………….. $2000.00


Below is a shop I have gotten some parts from and a lot of the budget minded 5.0 Ford guys get parts from an I haven’t heard anything bad about any of their parts including their valves or springs etc . . One of the problems with rebuilding the FE heads is the cost of the valves . . Just the stock replacements are around $200.00 a set . . Their stainless, high flow, undercut chrome stem chrome stem, dished head valves for an FE are only $125.00 . . I prefer to run hardened tips on stainless valves so if you used these valves and want to do that, you can buy lash caps for these from Summit etc.

$125.00

SS VALVES, FE FORD, CJ W/ 2.090/1.650, HIGH PERFORMANCE 428 - Alex's Parts Sales


$110.00

DUAL VALVE SPRING KIT, FE FORD W/ MODERATE TO LARGE PERFORMANCE CAMS - Alex's Parts Sales
FE FORD 352-428 Max Output -Drop In- Valve Spring Kit, Flat Tappet Engines - Alex's Parts Sales


All their FE parts.

FORD, FE 352, 360, 390, 410, 427, 428 - Alex's Parts Sales

Last edited by barnett468; 09-09-2015 at 01:34 AM.
barnett468 is offline  
post #23 of 82 (permalink) Old 09-08-2015, 09:44 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,260
Re: 352 to a Stroker

.
EXHAUST

I heard you bravely mention the word “headers” so ok, welcome to HELL.

If you have power steering, most long tubes may hit and if they do, they will need modification of some sort . . Most headers hang low on the car . . There is a company called FPA that makes mice headers . . Sometimes they even fit…sometimes they don’t, but theirs are tucked up under the car farther than anyone else’s . . If they don’t fit, they may modify them fir free or they may not . . Call and ask them.

The easiest option is to use short headers . . Sanderson and I think FPA make them . . The downside is that you will not get quite as much power from them as you would with long headers, HOWEVER, since you are not looking for a record breaking, 18,000 lb Galaxy, imo, it might be worth giving up a few hp for the ease of installation the short headers “should” provide.

If you have power steering and use the long tube headers, you will need to buy a $15.00 ram lowering bracket.

If you use the short headers, I would run a piece of 3” diameter pipe off the end that is at least 18” long then have a slow [not abrupt] taper to your final size which I would guess should be a minimum of 2 5/8” and a maximum of 3” . . The 2 5/8” or 2 3/4” will be far easier to bend and make fit.

I would also run a cross over tube or X pipe.


GASKETS

The Sandersons just use a thin bead of ultra high temp silicone . . I have never used them but that supposedly works . . I use mainly REMFLEX gaskets . . They will not ever burn out and the even seal warped flanges . . They were designed specifically for the 64 Galaxy . . Summit sells them and if they don't fit, you can EASILY return them within 30 days for a full refund if you don't scratch them.


THESE GUYS HAVE ORIGINAL FACTORY HEADERS

http://dscmotorsport.com/Manifolds/index.htm

This is just one of several styles . . they may need surfacing . . clean and paint them with eastwood cast iron color exhaust paint.




SANDERSONS AND HOOKERS AT SUMMIT RACING

http://www.summitracing.com/search/p.../model/galaxie


FPA

Ford Powertrain Applications



.................................................. ...... SANDERSONS

.................................


.................................................. .............. FPA TRI Y

..


.


.

Last edited by barnett468; 09-08-2015 at 10:50 PM.
barnett468 is offline  
post #24 of 82 (permalink) Old 09-08-2015, 10:43 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,260
Re: 352 to a Stroker

.
INTAKE MANIFOLD

In my experience, the new eddy performer will give good torque up to around 3500 but then falls off . . it may or may not be what you want . . If you get one, I would try it with and without a 1" spacer of some sort.

The most common upgrade is a factory ford police interceptor intake . . they can occasionally be found on ebay or you can by them from the secret site below for around $450.00.

Make sure the intake runners are the same size or smaller than the ones on the heads you use.


DSC Motorsports - Part Details




EDELBROCK F-427 . . It's similar the the one above.

DSC Motorsports - Part Details


Last edited by barnett468; 09-08-2015 at 11:26 PM.
barnett468 is offline  
post #25 of 82 (permalink) Old 09-09-2015, 07:11 AM
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,528
Re: 352 to a Stroker

I changed my 352 to a 390. While the increase in power was noticeable it was not head snapping by any means. Since you need to buy new rods and crank anyway I agree with the idea of stroking, just to make it worth your while.

As for spending money on the drag racing parts for street machine, I do not think they will give you nearly as much for your money as stroking. Though a little hotter rear end might be a good value.

Putts drives a 1965 customized Galaxie. Rebuilt 390, 4100 electric choke on a Performer, MX, AC, PS, PB w Scarebird front discs on Cragar 17" S/S.
puttster is offline  
post #26 of 82 (permalink) Old 09-09-2015, 08:15 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 24
Re: 352 to a Stroker

Yes, My427stang, meant 4.030, that was a typo...my bad. My head's crammed with numbers from all of this great info you guys are throwing my way. The good thing is I was toying with chasing down a 390, based on how the stroker kits are set up, along with what everyone was saying. Now though I think I'm settled on working with the 352. As mentioned in earlier posts, I'm not after a race motor, just one that performs well across the board. Kind of like the idea of raising the hood and having it look like a blue stock 352, but knowing the guts are a different animal. If I piece it together right, the only thing that'll look out of place are the shorty headers. Thanks again to everyone for all your help...this mid-life crisis crap is a blast!
duke1622 is offline  
post #27 of 82 (permalink) Old 09-09-2015, 11:18 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,260
Re: 352 to a Stroker

ok i would use your stock heads but do mild port work and buy the valves i posted . . this will increas your flow by around 20 percent which is a lot . . no need to do an expensive full port job . . use a factory intake . . a gt390 will be a little taller than yours but will flow better . . a 428 cobra jet one will be taller and look more different but will flow the best out of the 100 lb iron units . . forget the cheesy steel headers and buy the factory iron ones i posted . . ask dsc which ones will fit your app . . nobody will ever know they did not come on your particular car but they did come on the 427 64 galaxies . . buy an orig factory holley or a new gold zinnc one and change the flooat bowls and cross over tube so you dont have that cheesy looking right side chrome fuel line and rubber fuel hose . . buy a 67 gt 390 air cleaner with the screens and chrome lid and chrome valve covers if you want or use your stock one . . cut 3 holes iin the bck for more air flow . . theres your 400 hp stroker sleeper.t

Last edited by barnett468; 09-09-2015 at 11:33 AM.
barnett468 is offline  
post #28 of 82 (permalink) Old 09-09-2015, 11:41 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,260
Re: 352 to a Stroker

there are a zillion cams but for a non roller cam the comp xe262h will idle very smooth and will have monster throttle response and good bottom end . . the xe268h will have a slightly noiceable idle and a little less bottom end and it would prefer at least 3.00 gears for your app and 3.23 would be ideal if you want really strong acceleration but it will be revving a bit higher at freeway speed . . if you dont want to change your gears because you like low rpm at high speed and if you dont need to roasst the tires from a stop then do not get the 268 cam . the 262 or similar will get er done . . . if you use the sleeper parts i mentioned and the 268 cam and just a tiny 1800 to 2000 rpm stall converter and 3.23 gears it will snap your head back and roast the bejesus out of the tiress till the cows come home . . been there done that . . . .

Last edited by barnett468; 09-09-2015 at 11:59 AM.
barnett468 is offline  
post #29 of 82 (permalink) Old 09-09-2015, 12:05 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 24
Re: 352 to a Stroker

Barnett, are there any concerns I need to be aware of in regard to push rod length with the cam you are suggesting? As to the intake, I was thinking of one made by Blue Thunder that Barry mentioned in his book. Apparently it performs well, and also has a closer to stock appearance than the Edelbrock. I may be mistaken but I seem to recall it also has the crankcase breather at the rear, which is a consideration since my stock valve covers do not have a location for a PCV set up.
duke1622 is offline  
post #30 of 82 (permalink) Old 09-09-2015, 12:48 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,260
Re: 352 to a Stroker

Quote:
Originally Posted by duke1622 View Post
Barnett, are there any concerns I need to be aware of in regard to push rod length with the cam you are suggesting? As to the intake, I was thinking of one made by Blue Thunder that Barry mentioned in his book. Apparently it performs well, and also has a closer to stock appearance than the Edelbrock. I may be mistaken but I seem to recall it also has the crankcase breather at the rear, which is a consideration since my stock valve covers do not have a location for a PCV set up.
are you going to assemble the engine yourself?

the cam size does not determine push rod length . . if you want to set your valve train up PROPERLY, you can do what is often referred to as "setting the valve train geometry" or "setting the push rod geometry" . . this is a bit of a pita but i often do it . . it may or may not increase performance by a few hp . . it depends on how far it is off . . if you d not do it, you will never, ever, know the difference, but i or someone else here can explain in step by step detail exactly how to do it if you want.


ok i'll be back in a minute.

.

Last edited by barnett468; 09-09-2015 at 12:56 PM.
barnett468 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Ford Muscle Forums : Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
352 stroker Ron W Galaxie Pages 3 12-09-2012 09:22 PM
352 stroker? puttster Stroker Engines 15 06-01-2010 06:06 PM
352 versus 352 360hp fakesnake Galaxie Pages 11 11-09-2005 07:38 AM
352 Stroker? 65Custom Galaxie Pages 6 09-08-2005 03:38 PM
352 Stroker? Swingcat64 Galaxie Pages 3 01-27-2005 07:19 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome