Low rpm 390 stroker advice - Page 3 - Ford Muscle Forums : Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum
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post #31 of 91 (permalink) Old 08-26-2018, 07:43 PM
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Re: Low rpm 390 stroker advice

The LSA was 112 witch is erelevant when comparing 289 cubes to 445.
I have a BB mopar I first put together in 92, its a 500" wedge with production iron heads that makes 600 lb's of torque just under 3000 rpm and it's still making 630 hp at 6500 rpm with a 110 LSA cam.

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post #32 of 91 (permalink) Old 08-26-2018, 07:46 PM
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Re: Low rpm 390 stroker advice

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Originally Posted by lsugymrat24 View Post
I see you beat me to the punch. Thanks. I will have to retard the cam if I use the one i have
If you need to retarded or advanced a cam to use it , you have the wrong cam.

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post #33 of 91 (permalink) Old 08-26-2018, 08:27 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Low rpm 390 stroker advice

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If you need to retarded or advanced a cam to use it , you have the wrong cam.
Yes and no.

Yes, The cam I have was set up with an early icl so that installing it “straight up” (ie lining up the dot on the cam with the dot on the crank) gives it built in early timing. Now that I’m going with a stroker, the timing May be so early that the valve will hit the piston due to the longer stroke.

No, that doesn’t mean the intake duration and exhaust durations and lsa are incorrect for my application. it just means that the dot is in the wrong place on the cam. that doesn’t mean I have the wrong cam. If I know what icl is desired, I just have to degree the cam to that icl.

If I accept what you are saying, ford used different cam timing in 460 motors in the 60s versus the 70s. Does that mean they used the wrong cam in 460 motors in the 60s, 70s or for two decades? I would say they had the right cam for their desired use and degreed it to get the desired result

I am willing to accept that I have the wrong cam for my application if you have a suggestion and can explain why it is a better fit without completely changing everything else on my car. What flat tappet cam would you use to run mid grade pump gas for a 445 paired to a stock 3speed cruiseomatic with a stock 1800rpm stall, 3.50 gears, 780cfm vac secondary carb, dual plane rpm intake, edelbrock rpm heads, fpa shorty headers, and 2.5” exhaust in a 4400lb convertible with power steering and power brakes? Intake duration at .05, Exhaust at .05, LSA, ICL, and why?

Last edited by lsugymrat24; 08-26-2018 at 10:19 PM. Reason: Question added
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post #34 of 91 (permalink) Old 08-26-2018, 09:02 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Low rpm 390 stroker advice

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The LSA was 112 witch is erelevant when comparing 289 cubes to 445.
I have a BB mopar I first put together in 92, its a 500" wedge with production iron heads that makes 600 lb's of torque just under 3000 rpm and it's still making 630 hp at 6500 rpm with a 110 LSA cam.
You are 100% correct. There are some bitchin motors out there with 110lsa and it sounds like you have a cool one.
I kinda get what you’re saying about the 289 because it’s a much smaller engine so you’re using that to justify using a larger cam in my much larger engine. I don’t think it’s that simple. Unfortunately I dont know enough about engine calcs to compare what works on the 289 or a 460 or a mopar 500 wedge and make it relevant to the FE. others here may know how to do that but I hope we don’t get lost in what works on other engines because they all have different intakes, exhaust manifolds, combustion chambers, valve sizes, etc and could be paired with any number of transmissions, vehicle weights, gear ratios, etc.

I was referring to the lsa and cam specs of the 428cj which I am trying to beat. The 428 is the premier FE passenger motor of 1966 (aside from the 427 racing motor). In sticking with the FE motors from the same engine family, keeping everything else on the vehicle constant, the lsa of that cam is very important because it changes the overlap of the valves which directly affects the torque and horsepower curves. That was taken into account to get my 390 to compete with the 428. Now maybe it needs to be recalculated for a 445. Or maybe not.

Last edited by lsugymrat24; 08-26-2018 at 10:23 PM.
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post #35 of 91 (permalink) Old 08-27-2018, 04:18 AM
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Re: Low rpm 390 stroker advice

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If you need to retarded or advanced a cam to use it , you have the wrong cam.
Iowan, this just isn't correct. This is a custom cam that was ground 108 LSA on a 102 ICL, advancing a cam that much, combined with a narrow LSA has proven to provide a ton of torque. However cam advance is one tool that we use to make the engine do what we want by shifting the tuned peak as well as controlling cylinder fill A 108 LSA cam is commonly installed on 108 (called straight up) or even if using a generic 108 LSA box cam would be ground at 104. That's three viable options with the same cam. To think you wouldn't build an engine and manipulate intake centerline to your advantage is at best trusting the cam guy, at worst giving up power.

Now, lsugymrat bought this cam for a 390, yes that is true, and when doing that, picked a cam that is on the small side for the 445, however, that cam when installed straight up, will do absolutely fine in his heavy car with a stock tranny, converter and gears. It will also have the potential of making over 450 HP, which of course is not the peak a 445 could make, but with well into 550 lbs of torque, and pump gas friendly, should be very fun in the car.

Happy to discuss cams in detail, because all the valve events matter and interact with each other, but some of the comments concern me because you can't just look at .050, LSA, advertised duration, lift or overlap alone, each one plays upon the other
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post #36 of 91 (permalink) Old 08-27-2018, 04:20 AM
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Re: Low rpm 390 stroker advice

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Originally Posted by Iowan View Post
The LSA was 112 witch is erelevant when comparing 289 cubes to 445.
I have a BB mopar I first put together in 92, its a 500" wedge with production iron heads that makes 600 lb's of torque just under 3000 rpm and it's still making 630 hp at 6500 rpm with a 110 LSA cam.
Don't get caught up in any single part of cam grinding being irrelevant. In fact, many of us now look at the exhaust pulse as the first event, and managing that during overlap starts the process. Cam grinding has come a very long way.

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post #37 of 91 (permalink) Old 08-27-2018, 06:33 AM
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Re: Low rpm 390 stroker advice

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Iowan, this just isn't correct. This is a custom cam that was ground 108 LSA on a 102 ICL, advancing a cam that much, combined with a narrow LSA has proven to provide a ton of torque. However cam advance is one tool that we use to make the engine do what we want by shifting the tuned peak as well as controlling cylinder fill A 108 LSA cam is commonly installed on 108 (called straight up) or even if using a generic 108 LSA box cam would be ground at 104. That's three viable options with the same cam. To think you wouldn't build an engine and manipulate intake centerline to your advantage is at best trusting the cam guy, at worst giving up power.

Now, lsugymrat bought this cam for a 390, yes that is true, and when doing that, picked a cam that is on the small side for the 445, however, that cam when installed straight up, will do absolutely fine in his heavy car with a stock tranny, converter and gears. It will also have the potential of making over 450 HP, which of course is not the peak a 445 could make, but with well into 550 lbs of torque, and pump gas friendly, should be very fun in the car.

Happy to discuss cams in detail, because all the valve events matter and interact with each other, but some of the comments concern me because you can't just look at .050, LSA, advertised duration, lift or overlap alone, each one plays upon the other
As you point out engine size matters also, a small displacement 289 needs the extended range the larger LSA gives and a large displacement doesn't. If I was recamming my 500 I would use a 108 or maybe a 106 LSA
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post #38 of 91 (permalink) Old 08-27-2018, 09:53 AM
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Re: Low rpm 390 stroker advice

I'd like to see the numbers this combination actually makes , what I don't under stand is why go to lengths for such pathetic numbers, I have a 289/292 that makes 455 hp and 445 tq

And yes I know why you advance a cam and the deference 106,108,110,112 or larger ICL and how it affects the power band as does stroke and heads, I also no now you can manipulate the power band.
With the CID and the heads this thing has I would give it 230 to 235 duration @50 and all the lift that would fit, have the cam ground 2 degrees advanced , then put a carb on it 850 db. My 289 made the most power with a QF 750db and it only runs to 6500 but made more power everywhere.
I think you stifling your build by 50 ft lbs of torque.

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post #39 of 91 (permalink) Old 08-27-2018, 05:48 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Low rpm 390 stroker advice

I agree Iím leaving some on the table with the stroker now. In fact, I think all three of us can agree on that.

If I had never bought a cam for the 390, a new cam for the 445 would ideally have a little more duration but it isnt a necessity. We can all probably agree on that too

Where we seem to differ is being ok with going this far and not getting everything out of the engine. I guess why am I ok with it is the question. it may help to know it started as a 2bbl 390 economy motor with only 240hp. The initial goal was to make 350hp with a top end kit. If the lower end wasnít in question, I would have stopped there. Going the stroker route will give way more performance than originally planned with the 390 build.

I guess I could shelf the 390 cam and hope someone may want to buy it some day. I just hate to eat another $200 on the car when Iím already getting so much more than I ever expected.

By the way, thanks for the info gents.
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post #40 of 91 (permalink) Old 08-27-2018, 06:58 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Low rpm 390 stroker advice

The 2bbl setup the car has now is definitely anemic. Great throttle response but Very Blah

The 1998 mustang I bought in college only had around 200hp which was definitely pathetic. It was all I could afford but it was laughable.

I know it’s all in fun, but 450 HP or 550 lbs of torque doesn’t sound terribly anemic or pathetic for a street car. My F150 (360hp and 380ft-lbs) doesn’t have anywhere near that now and it hauls ass

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post #41 of 91 (permalink) Old 08-27-2018, 08:37 PM
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Re: Low rpm 390 stroker advice

Like I've said I would like to see actual dyno sheets on your combination.

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post #42 of 91 (permalink) Old 08-28-2018, 06:03 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Low rpm 390 stroker advice

Iowan, i may order a different cam when I order the balanced stroker kit from Lykins. I will see what kind of additional horsepower and torque it buys me. it may be worth a look, so thank you for bringing it up.

My427stang, I'm curious if I didn't already have what I consider the perfect cam for my original 390 goals, what would you ideally use for the 445 build? What would it gain me? And can my stock transmission accept it? I'm sure you already have these numbers in a holster. lol.

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post #43 of 91 (permalink) Old 08-28-2018, 05:48 PM
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Re: Low rpm 390 stroker advice

I have gone back and read you thread on your 390 build and the build of your car.
I realized how your into your 390/445 and how you got there. Its always more expensive to change course after you have started.
Having said that I can understand why you don't want to spend another $200 for another cam. I've been in this position myself and have a selection of new cams that I have changed my mind on and gone with a diferant grind or had a grind I wanted to try but never got around to tying.

One thing I do with the flat tappet cam is to have it nitrated by the cam manufacturer, it's increased protection against a flat cam.

You're going to have a nice ride when you get the old vert back on the road, and if it doesn't has track lock differential you'd better get one. You going to need a good supply of rear tires also.
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post #44 of 91 (permalink) Old 08-29-2018, 03:19 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Low rpm 390 stroker advice

I appreciate that. When I first got the car, I was thinking 4.11 gears, long tube hooker competition headers, super long duration cam, high rise intake, large stall and shift kit, and a bunch of really knarly stuff. Then I found out the gearing would be terrible for the interstate and driving to cruising the coast in Biloxi so I backed off. Then I learned a high rise intake won’t fit under the hood and I’ll be lucky to get a dual plane in there. Then I discovered quite a bit of interference around the engine and frame so I went with shorty headers. Then I discovered there are oiling issues over around 5500 rpm so I capped the rpm much lower than expected. There have been concessions all the way around. But I have improved the suspension substantially and now might be adding 200hp plus torque in a very streetable package. I’m excited
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post #45 of 91 (permalink) Old 08-29-2018, 05:58 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Low rpm 390 stroker advice

i was all wet on something earlier and want to bring it to light. after talking with Brent, the advanced cam timing on the 390 won't cause the valves to hit the piston any more with the 445 stroker than they would with the 390. the reason for retarding the cam timing from 102icl where I was going to run it on the 390 is because with increased displacement comes increased compression ratio (the stroke is longer and the rod length is longer). if i use the same cam in the 445 that I was going to use in the 390 and don't back off on timing, there will be issues with running pump gas. i think Ross covered this pretty well so I don't want this to cause the big debate to stir up again. But I was wrong on the valves hitting the pistons if running 102icl with the longer stroke, and I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong... after all I'm no expert and I didn't stay in a holiday inn express last night. lol
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