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Discussion Starter #1
I know this topic has been discussed before but I can't seem to locate it via the search option
If anyone can give me the link great.

With respect to comparing the 2, from what little I know and have heard the 351 W would appear to be the more common build-up option given the variety, availability of parts and overall economics? What are the differences? What are the Pro's vs Cons of each?

Notwithstanding ones own personal preference, which one of these engines would provide the most upside in terms of overall peformance(and why) all things being equal?

Thanks

PS MonsterMach, Really enjoyed the read on your site.
 

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In the time I spent looking into the 2 engines, I decided to go with 351W. I found that both used and new aftermarket parts were more plentiful and affordable. In terms of power, the 351C in stock form was a more potent motor than the 351W in stock form, however either engine can be built up to most requirements. Another alternative to consider is the 351M which is the big block 351 than can be easily modified to a 400 cu-in. Just my 2 cents....
 

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The 351W has the most aftermarket performance parts available. Therefore, the rational thing is if you want to build an engine with the most parts available for slightly less cost, go with the 351W. By the way, I have a 351C Im building for my '71 Torino. I decided to go the non-rational route. I think the 351C is a great engine with tons of easy potential power. Besides, not everyone is running one!
 

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I'm using a stroker 351-W for my 65 Falcon.

There are so many parts for these engines out there to buy.

The 351-C was never in the running for a possible engine in my cars case.

Blocks,cranks and stroker kits are available from tons of places if your doing a Winsor.

My vote is for Ford 351-W.


If my Galaxie ever gets re-powered(probably will) I will use a 429-460 engine.
 

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I'm building a 351C for my 70 mustang which currently has a 347 stroker. The Windsor heads are just too limiting to build a real high horsepower engine without dropping a bundle of cash. Sure, it's nice having dozens of aluminum heads to choose from, but why not just start with an engine that has excellent stock heads? To me, the 351C is a big block in a small package. That makes it an excellent choice for smaller engine bays.
 

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The 351W has the best shortblock, the 351C has the best (factory) heads.

Back in the days before aftermarket heads came out, the 351C was the only way to go. The 351W (with heads originally designed for a 221ci engine) had a built-in case of asthma! They were considered 'door stops' and -might- be found in your tow vehicle, but NOT your race car!


Times have changed. Nowadays a person can buy a $500 3.85" stroker crank, use the stock 351W rods, and a set of regular 302 pistons to build a 393ci windsor. Top this with a nice set of aftermarket heads, and you've got a real budget stormer on your hands!

I'm not taking anything away from the 351C. It can STILL be built to make SERIOUS power. The heads are capable of producing more power than the shortblock can handle! It has acquired sort of a 'cult' following, like the FE... and people STILL stand up and take notice when someone says their car is powered by the mighty 351C. It's also a DAMN PRETTY engine when it's all dressed up!


In the end, with all it's modern aftermarket support, it's tought to beat a 351W stroked out to 400+ cubic inches. The selection of heads, intakes and other aftermarket parts for this engine seals the deal.

BUT, if aftermarket heads are out of the budget, or a stockpile of 351C parts exists in your garage, it's a great engine that can make SERIOUS power... with mostly all factory parts. And do it in STYLE!


Good Luck!
 

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On 2002-05-21 15:44, n2omike wrote:



.....and people STILL stand up and take notice when someone says their car is powered by the mighty 351C. It's also a DAMN PRETTY engine when it's all dressed up!


.....it's a great engine that can make SERIOUS power... with mostly all factory parts. And do it in STYLE!


Good Luck!
I agree with this 100%. You can't beat the looks of a Cleveland.
I think you sould build a 351W, though. Then there will be more Cleveland parts for me!
 

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Here's what i did with my Cleveland;
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2000/05/falconute/index.shtml

In Australia it's different, we had the cleveland from '69 to '85. Parts are plentyful and new parts are cheaper than windsor stuff. We've had the 5.0 since '91 so obviously the tide is slowly turning. Recently though a new set of aftermarket Cleveland alloy heads has been produced which have received much praise.

I'm currently replacing my cleveland with a 391W....not because I particularly wanted to, but mainly because I had to sell one of the engines and no-one wanted the windsor!

As far as strokers go, you can still get the Scat cranks with cleveland mains for the same money. It's only the rod/piston combo that is more expensive but, then you don't have to go for aftermarket heads.

Another option is to use Cleveland heads on a windsor bottom end.

Pete.
 

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IF you do not have an engine yet go 351W.
The 351W is now the best choice for all around power and torque for the money spent.
In 1982 my 70 stang was powered by a 351C 4v quench chamber motor,but back then it was the ONLY way you were gonna blow away 350 chubies. Today it would be a W motor. Now I know the Aussies have tons of C motors and I see why they run em. I wish we had that same "problem" here in America
Not many C motors around and the 351C 4V quench chamber head was only made for 2 years! Its just to easy to build a nasty W motor now. Maybe too easy for some
 

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I'll suggest something a little different and cheaper than both routes. Build a 400. People will give you a 351M/400 just to get it out of their shop/shed/garage. Align hone/bore/torque plate hone/deck the block, balance the rotating assembly, bolt on a set of Aussie heads, add a Weiand X-celerator, Speed Demon 750 carb, and a good hydro cam in the 220/[email protected] duration and .550-.580 lift range and you are looking at a 400 horse engine that will make unbeleivable amounts of torque. You can do this for $2500+/- IF (big ifs here) you shop wisely and do your own assembly work.

--J
 

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Lets clear one thing up, the Cleveland engine is a SMALL BLOCK, not a big block...even the FRPP and the old Motorsport catalogs list the engine in their small block sections. Also, there is no such thing as a 400M, only a 351M. The "M" does not belong to the 400 cu. in. motor, it only applies to the 351 size of motor. But Im getting off topic (see what you guys are doing to me? LOL).
The Windsor has the better parts availability and support going for it. If you're gonna build one with plenty of aftermarket parts, then the Windsor is the clear choice to make.
However, when it comes "stock vs. stock", the Cleveland will walk all over the Windsor because it has the ability to breate, as to where the Windsor's stock heads are strangling it to death!
If aftermarket heads are just not possible on your budget, then I'd go with the Cleveland because its got the better heads already (even the open chamber 2V heads flow more than any common 289/302/351W head). But if the aftermarket is a reality for you for heads, then build the Windsor!
 

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its not hard to find 351c stuff. the shop i work at has around 8 blocks 3 of them are 4 bolt mains and many sets of heads 2v, 4v open, closed, aussie you name it. i have a windsor in my falcon with around 400hp but im throwing that away to build a 351c for it cause you cant beat the power out of them, and one of the other guys i work with has one in his cougar with 500hp and the own has to one in a mavrick with around 400hp and one is his 68 fastback with well over 600hp and he runs in the high 9s, i would take a 351c over a 351w any day. like stanley said if you want power and flow get a 351c no other head out flows 4v closed chamber heads stock or other wise for a small block and you dont need to port or polish them. and the shortblock would blow anything out of the water. my thought on this
 

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On 2002-05-22 01:29, jmobley wrote:
I'll suggest something a little different and cheaper than both routes. Build a 400. People will give you a 351M/400 just to get it out of their shop/shed/garage. Align hone/bore/torque plate hone/deck the block, balance the rotating assembly, bolt on a set of Aussie heads, add a Weiand X-celerator, Speed Demon 750 carb, and a good hydro cam in the 220/[email protected] duration and .550-.580 lift range and you are looking at a 400 horse engine that will make unbeleivable amounts of torque. You can do this for $2500+/- IF (big ifs here) you shop wisely and do your own assembly work.

--J
Yep 400's can be fun no doubt but 302C(aussie as you call them) have a 58cc chamber so you'd need one hell of dished piston to make it work on a 400. Other considerations are that 400's are 10.2" tall and most have a bigblock bellhousing pattern. Depends what car you have I guess.
Have you done this J? what dish/comp did you use?

Pete.
 

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Hey XR9UTE,

No I have not bolted Aussie heads on a 400, yet. I'm still searching for a 400FMX block to put in my XA Falcon. The compression will be quite high with the stock heads so it would be best if you unshrouded the intake valve and open up the chambers just a little. You could increase the volume to 62-64cc with a little work and not hurt the quench properties. This should get the compression down to the 10.5-11.0:1 ratio with flat-tops and it will run on US pump gas. The big-block bellhousing should not be a problem for a 67-73 Mustang, Torino, or Cougar since all three were sold with big bolcks.

--J
 

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I thought that in order for the "quench" effect to properly work the piston had to be as close to the head as possible, and the 3.5" stroke of the 351 and the deckheight made it just right? With the 400 you are cramming an extra .5" of stroke driving the CR up higher. The Deck is also taller moving the piston away from the head??

With a 64 cc head and a flattop wont you be well over 11:1?? With 60cc heads, and flat tops MonsterMach is getting 11:1 CR.

The only way that I have heard of this working is with dished pistons. The extra stroke with Dished pistons can still get you close to 11:1 CR and the outter rim of the piston retains the, "Quench" affect.

I am not sure if this is all true or not, but just what I have heard. Guess I will go over to the 335 series board and post there

 

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I was really quite surprised when I started posting on this board how popular the 351-Cs were here?

Around here it's very uncommon to see a built 351-C in a car?

It's mostley 351-Ws and 429-460s that are used.

I'm not saying the 351-Cs are bad or anything it's just that the only time I really see alot of stuff about them is at this board?

I guess different areas have different tastes in what motors are common to that area?
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Hey DT, well there were a couple of things that really spurred my curiosity regarding the Cleveland. One I just met someone in passing at work who had one and then I just happened to check out "MONSTERMACHS" homepage which I felt gave a pretty cool history of his Buildup..."The Beast". I thought it was pretty interesting and nicely done. Anyway I just got interested in them but you are right, don't here too much about them up here either, but when I do, nothing negative, only the same stuff that has been brought up here .....lack of parts including aftermarket options. Different stokes for different folks I guess
 

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MightyMach,

I'm not going to lay out some BS here as I cannot fully explain quench. The Pantera guys that I talk to quite often say that the Aussie heads with 2.19 intakes valves and some minor unshrouding of the cc's around intake valve will yield about 62.5cc. When used on a 400, this works out to 10.8-11.0:1. These guys run 93 octane with out problems. I'd think high air temps and a heavy load would cause knock. BTW, why would stroke affect quench or compression? Wouldn't that be dependent on deck hieght, chamber volume, dome hieght, and pin location?

--J
 

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On building a 400, Summit offers a rebuild kit that gives 8.33:1 CR with 76cc heads. I calculate that you would get about 9.3:1 if you used an Aussie head with a 62cc chamber. I think that would be a nice engine in my 79 F150 four-wheel drive.

XR9UTE,
What alloy Cleveland heads are you referring to?
 
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