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First, let me start off with saying I am NOT A BUILDER, OR A GENIUS!!

Secondly, I am not saying that you are BSing us.

That said: From what I understand The deck height is important because the piston needs to be near the head for the "Quench effect". With the higher deck height, the piston does not get close enough to the head. The "Quench effect" is gone now. To solve this, you must mill the deck. Milling the deck raises the Compression ratio. To lower the Compression ratio, you get a dished piston (summits rebuild kit is a 14.5 cc dish) and according to FM's Compression calculator this figures to be a 10.5:1 compression with 0 deck volume. The outside rim of the dished piston is still close to the head keeping the "Quench effect". Anyone wanna tell me how I did? I think I will post at the 335 series board as well.

Jeff Given
 

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No other W head stock or otherwise will out flow a stock C head? Lets not get carried away. The available and soon to come aftermarket inline valve W heads will kill a stock C motor head any day. Remember that peak flow is not the only determing factor of the power making capabilties of a cyl head....this has been pointed out many times on this forum. Also dont forget the lame dog leg exhaust on the C motor head that required being cut off and exhaust port plates used to raise and straighten it.(the common practice started in the 70's by Pro Stock Ford racers). To say the stock C motor will kill a stock W motor is no great revelation. Ford never developed the W for racing or performance as the Boss cyl head(351C 4V quench chamber) was Fords answer to the small block chevy in 69(1969 was the 1st appearance of the Boss 302/351 cyl head). In some respects it still is when you look at the Ford nascar engine...in many ways it is the C motor in its most modern developed state. In the end the canted valve layout seems to be the better power maker over the inline valve layout for all out racing...although this will probably be debated by many from boths sides. It just depends on what you are trying to build. For all out high rpm racing the C motor is very capable and it should be as it was designed for it. But for a strong midrange torque street motor in the 3000-6000 rpm range a W motor with the "right" aftermarket head will waste the 351C 4V and its way to large intake ports. This is why the 351C 4V motor was only around for 4 years, it was a terrible low rpm engine(idle-5000 rpm) for moving big ford cars around and also why it was never installed in pickups.
 

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I guess I wasnt finished yet


After all that being said the Boss 351 is still the King of ALL smallblocks as no other factory assembly line smallblock has the potential of that engine. Ford did well 30+ years ago when they released that monster on GM and the rest
 

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On 2002-05-23 00:32, qtrhors wrote:
I guess I wasnt finished yet


After all that being said the Boss 351 is still the King of ALL smallblocks as no other factory assembly line smallblock has the potential of that engine. Ford did well 30+ years ago when they released that monster on GM and the rest
You got that right!


I have never been a fan on the 351-C engines but,I definatly respect that motor and I'm sure glad that Ford made it!
 

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On 2002-05-22 21:05, brianfulwood wrote:
On building a 400, Summit offers a rebuild kit that gives 8.33:1 CR with 76cc heads. I calculate that you would get about 9.3:1 if you used an Aussie head with a 62cc chamber. I think that would be a nice engine in my 79 F150 four-wheel drive.

XR9UTE,
What alloy Cleveland heads are you referring to?
The heads are by Cylinder Head Innovators(CHI). They call them the 3V. I can't seem to find anything about them on the net except this picture;
http://www.pim.net/3v1113b.jpg
I have a magazine article somewhere. I'll see if I can dig it out. From memory they built an engine which made 525hp @6400 with these heads. They switched to a set of port filled and high ported CC 4V's which made less power and nowhere near the torque and average power that the 3V's made. I think they used 2.1" Intakes and 1.65" exhausts. 2.19" intakes are known to shroud themselves on the cylinder wall as is the case with stock heads.

Pete.
 

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hey there we try not to dig up posts from 5 years ago but with a 400 crank in a 351m and a good set of heads you can get 400 HP alot cheaper then you can with a windsor
 

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Clevor has may vote, we need more of them to make it known that it's a beast to be reckon with.
 

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All it takes is money! That is not a cheap motor and the return over an AFR headed motor would not be that big IMO. Car Craft featured a motor that used all out of the box, off the shelf part that made 700hp. It was a stroker windsor built by S.A.M. School of Automotive Machining. CHI heads are great, but I have not seen any of them at the track. Yates and Brodix seems to be the heads of choice.
 

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All it takes is money! That is not a cheap motor and the return over an AFR headed motor would not be that big IMO. Car Craft featured a motor that used all out of the box, off the shelf part that made 700hp. It was a stroker windsor built by S.A.M. School of Automotive Machining. CHI heads are great, but I have not seen any of them at the track. Yates and Brodix seems to be the heads of choice.

Yates, Brodix and Ford Motorsport heads have lot bigger ports, good for the racetrack but not good on the sreet. They actualy only recomend them for racing or realy big cubic inches. By the way the CHI heads were not off the shelf, with the bigger bore, the valves are too shrouded and the combustion chambers were modified despite what the article says, the ports and manifold do require port matching.
 

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I was not talking about the engine masters build. They did an AFR headed motor. The motor was reported to be all untouched catalog parts, no massaging, no custom. I wish I still had the issue. I think it cost about $7k to reproduce including block machining and balancing. It would be hard to get that kind of n/a power for any less.
 

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The Car Craft article you are talking about was a big block chev with AFR heads. The School of Automotve Machinists used Modified CHI heads. Have a look at the pictures and you can see the head work.
 

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I know I will probably get laughed at for posting this, but I am rebuilding my first car ever, and I am learning by trial and error. I thought my 1972 Gran Torino had a 351W in it according to phil long ford. However the guys at firestone are telling me they believe its a 351C. I personnaly think the guy at firestone is wrong because every part I have has been for a 351W and they fit. So how do I know for sure? Also I am at a high altitude state. (Colorado Springs, CO) I am in the process of upgrading my stock intake manifold and two barrell carb to a edelbrock intake and 4 barrel carb (5oo series) as well as changing over the distrubuter. (So I can get rid of the points and all) I noticed that some need a ignition box and some dont, what is the difference? My next question is how do I know if I have the C4 or C6 transmission? I have leanrned that I have the 9inch rear end, and I believe it has 3:0:7 gears in it, it takes off slow as hell cant even squeal the tires at all, but on the freeway she is gone, what would be the best set of gears to put into it? I would like to be able to just punch the gas and have the tires squeal. (atleast a little) I am tired of my friends teasign me and calling her "grandmas grocery getter" lol New Image.jpg
 

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I love the cleveland! main reason being, back in the day when I was young to the game in high school auto mechanics class we did some experimenting. My instructor loved the cleveland. We did the traditional little hop ups on 3 different engines. You know stuff that could be had, cam and lifters intake ,carb, headers. the 3 engines used were 350 chevy, 318 dodge, and a 351 cleveland. There were no magical cylinder heads allowed (not that any of us could afford any at that time). The cleveland walked..as a matter a fact I didn't even think it was close! It was at that time I fell in love with the cleveland, I'm using one in my 67 fairlane now. I have pondered the idea of building a 400, I still might. Most guys who use the cleveland tend to stay that way and can't be talked into anything else..guess I fall into that category!
 

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I know I will probably get laughed at for posting this, but I am rebuilding my first car ever, and I am learning by trial and error. I thought my 1972 Gran Torino had a 351W in it according to phil long ford. However the guys at firestone are telling me they believe its a 351C. I personnaly think the guy at firestone is wrong because every part I have has been for a 351W and they fit. So how do I know for sure? Also I am at a high altitude state. (Colorado Springs, CO) I am in the process of upgrading my stock intake manifold and two barrell carb to a edelbrock intake and 4 barrel carb (5oo series) as well as changing over the distrubuter. (So I can get rid of the points and all) I noticed that some need a ignition box and some dont, what is the difference? My next question is how do I know if I have the C4 or C6 transmission? I have leanrned that I have the 9inch rear end, and I believe it has 3:0:7 gears in it, it takes off slow as hell cant even squeal the tires at all, but on the freeway she is gone, what would be the best set of gears to put into it? I would like to be able to just punch the gas and have the tires squeal. (atleast a little) I am tired of my friends teasign me and calling her "grandmas grocery getter" lol View attachment 23259
didn't have to dig up on old thread . doing so most likely bring up some info on C vs W

few easy ways to tell a Cleveland .... T/stat is bolted to the block , exhaust bolts are staggerd , intake bolts are at different angle , no C take a 18mm spark plug.. W intake bolts are all vertical , has an aluminum timing cover
 

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Clevor has may vote, we need more of them to make it known that it's a beast to be reckon with.
old thread already up ..
building a Clevor has it fitment issues in some cars . other that the extra .300" deck the W block is no stronger than a C . C has other built in advantages

cost to build a Clevor 4V cc head 400+ cube would be less cost imo . know it would be for me

five year old thread , thing changed with new heads/intakes for the C . even a block or two
 

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One thing no one has talked about that the Cleveland has over the Windsor, the mains size on the crank. The smaller size on the 351C lets them rev fast and free! And good oil and simple oil restrictors, no problems!
I've got a few Cleveland's, one stocker with a cam & roller rockers making 400hp with a 750cfm VS.
CHI headed 393 good for 530hp & peak torque @ 3400rpm, and quickly revs to 6800, smokes tyres too easy..
Best one for everyday, 2V 351c roller cam & rockers etc, port job around valve and guides only, got about 440hp on the dyno 750cfm DP.
All have awesome throttle response. My mate has a 351W in a kit car and 383sbc ally heads in a Corvette, and my stocker is quicker to the speed limit then both his cars.

I know a few race car guys over who run in a class that mandates they run stock motor capacity and carby size. These guys are making small blocks of all makes, making 750 plus! The best of all is 830hp, from a windsor based block with cleveland dimensions and CHI heads.
 

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Very hard to even find a Cleveland mill around here, Ontario, Canada, anyone that has one will not part with it or you find one that has been already bored to the limit.
I;m going to look at a Clevor tomorrow, 70 block from oil pan to carb, stock bore & matching C-4.
On the phone the guy tells me he wants to go a different way, pulling the Cleveland out of his 70 cougar & going with a 6 banger.
Seems this one is not your run of the mill 6, called a RB26, I think its origns are Japanese?
Looking forward to this, cause the price is right & as I said, very rare around here
 
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