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Hey all, I'm new here so I thought I'd introduce myself first off.

I have been searching this forum and others looking for the best possible combo to put together a B-mod/Midwest mod motor. I am planning on running at Lucas Oil Speedway in Wheatland,Mo. Rules are fairly straight forward but like a lot of places they are predominantly based around them damn chebbies.

Here are the engine rules:

ENGINE
SPEC ENGINE: Must use OEM cast iron, American made V-8 engines only. All engines must be able to be used in conventional passenger car without alterations. External engine casting and threaded holes cannot be altered. No aluminum, titanium or carbon fiber components allowed. Maximum cubic inch limits: GM 361 c.i., Ford 360 c.i., Chrysler 370 c.i., no tolerance. No 400 or larger cubic inch parts allowed. Engine must appear strictly stock. No lightening of block allowed. No lightweight rods or crankshaft. Crankshaft must be stock appearing. No pendulum cut or holes across counterweights. No aluminum or lightweight engine parts allowed. A minimum 1-inch plug above the oil level in the side of the oil pan recommended. If you do not have a plug the oil pan the pan will have to be removed at time of inspection. You will be checked. Flat Top or Dished Pistons only with a maximum Compression Ratio of 10.5:1 including Chevy, Ford, Chrysler, and Dodge.
CRATE ENGINE: Unaltered sealed GM crate engine #88958602. Any different, altered, or missing GM seal bolts will result in disqualification, loss of all track points for the season, and a one year suspension.
VALVE TRAIN: Maximum 2.02-inch intake valves and 1.60-inch exhaust valves. No titanium valve springs or retainers. Guide plates and screw in studs allowed. Flat milling allowed, No angle milling allowed. Flat- top or dished pistons only. Must use flat tappet cam and lifters. No mushroom lifters. Cannot alter lifter bores. Must use OEM size lifters for block being used. Any length push rods allowed. Aluminum roller ocker arms and stud girdles are allowed. No canted valves. Inline valves only. Maximum valve spring diameter 1.440-inches.
BLOCKS
GENERAL MOTORS: Must be 3.48-inch stroke and 4.060-inch maximum bore. Maximum 360 cubic inches. COMPONENT GUIDELINES: Must use one of following blocks, 3892657, 3914678, 3932388, 3932386, 3956618, 3970000,3970006, 3970010, 3970014, 10066033, 10066036, 14010207, 14010209, 14010287, 14016376, 14016379.
FORD: Stock cast iron blocks 260, 289, 302, 351. Maximum 360 cubic inches. No aftermarket blocks. CHRYSLER: Stock cast iron blocks 273, 318, 340, 360. Maximum 370 cubic inches.
HEADS: These are the only legal heads!!!
GM: Any stock GM head. No bowtie vortec heads allowed. Dart - 10320010 or 10311112
World Products - 011250 or 012150
RHS - 12319 or 12320
EQ - cc200BA Bowtie - 034 Standard Vortec
FORD: Any stock Ford Head
World Products - 053040 or E351 or Roush 200 RHS- 35302
SVO- N351 or N352
CHRYSLER: Any OEM factory production Chrysler heads allowed with inline valves (no canted valves) no larger than 2.04-inch intake and 1.70-inch exhaust. No W-2 or aftermarket heads allowed. Chrysler may use OEM rocker arm bars.
No aftermarket head other than listed above allowed.
Track has option to enforce these restrictions with a cubic inch pump gauge, or by visually checking parts and part numbers Disqualification and loss of points may result if found illegal.

CARBURETOR
SPEC MOTOR: Must use stock Holley 4412 500 CFM carburetor only. No Modifications. Choke horn must be intact. May remove choke butterfly. Must use Edelbrock Performer 4 bbl. intake manifold. Chevrolet part #2101 or #2116, Ford part #2121 or #2181 or Chrysler part #2176. NO exceptions. No Performer RPM or air gap manifolds. Must use Mr. Gasket part No. 1933, Moroso part. No.64966, Speedway part No. 910- 11510, or HVH part. No. 4412-2 carburetor adaptor. No spacers are allowed. Carburetor and adaptor gaskets maximum 0.050 inch thick.
CRATE MOTOR: May use any Holley 4 barrel carburetor; all components (float bowls and main body) must be Holley manufactured. Metering blocks and base plate may be billet aluminum non-Holley. No aerosol-style carburetors allowed. May use one inch thick carburetor spacer, must use Moroso part #64940 or a 2" open plastic spacer allowed with GM crate. Maximum 0.100-inch thick carburetor gaskets only.
OIL PANS - Extra capacity oil pans are permitted. No dry sumps allowed. Oil pump must mount in stock position.
STARTER - Engine must have working starter and must be capable of starting car on demand. No Reverse Mount Starters.

GAUGES/ELECTRONICS - 12-volt ignition system only. All wiring must be visible for inspection. The only gauges allowed are analog oil pressure, analog water temperature and analog tachometer (memory recall allowed). No electronic traction control ALLOWED.
GM: HEI distributor. OEM firing order cannot be changed. Ignition rotor, cap, coil and module must remain OEM appearing.
FORD: Duraspark distributor with stock type coil or HEI
CHRYSLER: Ignition rotor, cap, coil and module must remain OEM appearing.
All cars may use a Part # MSD 8728 Soft Touch Rev Control box. Must be mounted out of reach of driver. 602 Crate Cars must use a Part # MSD 8728 Soft Touch Rev Control box mounted out of reach of driver. 602 CRATE mandatory 6200 RPM chip. Track reserves the right to swap or exchange chip at any time.

I am not very experienced with the Windsor stuff, most of my knowledge is based around 429-460 stuff so I'll take all of the help and suggestions I can get from you all. I want to build theist competitive motor that I can for this upcoming season.

Taylor
 

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What is your sanction body? And if you do a search I just covered this in a previous post. Thanks, Sean Walker IMCA tech Official.
 

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race at another track also can build a 331 based on a 302 with N351 heads . use I beam rods and internal balanced
you wondering why the smaller cubes ?

btw , what weight and what type of car is a B/Mod

there is a lot of info still needed
 

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Looks like they are making it the chevy v chevy show.... have to run a 2 bbl unless its the crate then can run a 4? wth is that about?

Dang gonna be hard to build something competitive for less than 4k... (the '602' crate price)

But understand wanting to be a little different...
 

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lot sbc crates are 9.0 c/r , to equal it they get the 4 brl
 

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These "chevy only" race spec classes are crap! By the rules you can't even enter a bone stock 2v Cleveland motor (it'd probably eat the rest of the competition too). Look for a different class to race in or try starting your own.
 

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Whats the track specs? Banking? Tight turns? Long straights? Can we port heads? No mention. Manafold work? How cheated up is everyone else? No mention of exaust at all...Can we do anything we want there?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Track is a big 3/8 dirt oval, Pretty balanced between turns and straights. Turns have progressive banking. Rules are that we can't touch the heads, they have to remain bone stock as well as the intake manifold. As far as exhaust, this is what is says "EXHAUST - Round tube headers only. All primary header tubes must enter directly into one collector, at same point at the end of header. No extensions on headers. Turn down allowed. No stepped header allowed. No exhaust sensors, cross-overs, extensions, merge collectors, inserts or balance tubes. No Tri-Y Headers. Exhaust must be directed away from areas of possible fuel spillage. No zoomies."
My first thought was run a Cleveland head but then the Chevy guys would whine. Yeah it'll be hard to compete with the 4k price tag of a crate motor. B/mods are pretty much the same as the IMCA sport mods or the Midwest mods. 2500lbs with a spec motor.
The class rules are Lucas Oil Speedways own set of rules so they differ a little bit here and there, but are mostly the same as IMCA or USRA rules.
As far is the less cubes, I am curious as to why less cubes. I think with the no stroke rule that'd rule out the 302 based motor.
Sorry I missed the previous coverage of this topic Sean, I'll be sure to look it up and get all that I can out of it.
 

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MHO is that you wont be able to 'beat' the guys budget wise, and sure cant using a 302 based build, so that leaves the '51 W engine bored out. A 030 over '51 ford figures 357 CI so there you are within rules. Beings you are not to use aftermarket rotating assy (rods crank) you are stuck with finding the lightest 'stock' pieces you can. I would pull the stops out on the balancing/blueprint of the bottom end for reliability and build from there. Are you stuck with the 6200 rpm rule also (that gets a little murky the way its worded) If so the TOP end is the real balancing act and where the homework is really needed.

3/8ths tracks I have found, MOST guys turn the r's from 4k up, but have never known a track to limit the top, so you will need to build a motor thats a monster from 4k-6k only. (gearing plays a HUGE role in the r's. I always geared steeper than what was 'normal' but it also gets to the top end of revs quicker. ( here the track is a 'big' 1/4 and most geared for a 6:20 final, most used 2;43 rear, I was pulling a 3;08) Thing would LAUNCH off the corner on a tacky night, it did hurt on D/S nights tho but could still stay up with the top cars.....
 

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MHO is that you wont be able to 'beat' the guys budget wise, and sure cant using a 302 based build, so that leaves the '51 W engine bored out. A 030 over '51 ford figures 357 CI so there you are within rules. Beings you are not to use aftermarket rotating assy (rods crank) you are stuck with finding the lightest 'stock' pieces you can. I would pull the stops out on the balancing/blueprint of the bottom end for reliability and build from there. Are you stuck with the 6200 rpm rule also (that gets a little murky the way its worded) If so the TOP end is the real balancing act and where the homework is really needed.

3/8ths tracks I have found, MOST guys turn the r's from 4k up, but have never known a track to limit the top, so you will need to build a motor thats a monster from 4k-6k only. (gearing plays a HUGE role in the r's. I always geared steeper than what was 'normal' but it also gets to the top end of revs quicker. ( here the track is a 'big' 1/4 and most geared for a 6:20 final, most used 2;43 rear, I was pulling a 3;08) Thing would LAUNCH off the corner on a tacky night, it did hurt on D/S nights tho but could still stay up with the top cars.....
why won't a 302 base engine should,nt be used ?

you do have it right that he won't be able to beat them budget wise . him thinking $4500 crate is up there price wise

hint on the cubes .. know way NASCAR limits the min. cubes at 350 ?

btw , they still use the trans lower ranges to get the final drive number ?
have'nt dont that in years except for the strickly stocks
 

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why won't a 302 base engine should,nt be used ?

Cost, the crate eng they are allowed to run I saw priced from 3200-3800 bux (its the 350/350 VORTEC headed crate, which is a crock sense they are suppsoedly not allowed on a 'home build') was just saying to 'keep' up cube wise with a '02 was gonna blow the majority of the budget. I would try to start with an "even" playing field and start with a '51 CI-wise
hint on the cubes .. know way NASCAR limits the min. cubes at 350 ?

Nope sure dont know why they have a "minimum" cube rule....
 

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Cost, the crate eng they are allowed to run I saw priced from 3200-3800 bux (its the 350/350 VORTEC headed crate, which is a crock sense they are suppsoedly not allowed on a 'home build') was just saying to 'keep' up cube wise with a '02 was gonna blow the majority of the budget. I would try to start with an "even" playing field and start with a '51 CI-wise



Nope sure dont know why they have a "minimum" cube rule....
NASCAR rule , smaller cubes make more power with restrictor plates .
4412 is equal to a 350 cfm 4 brl

a 331 could kick their butt , 6k rpm is for granny's car
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Mroldfart, thanks for that advice. I'll definitely keep that in mind when spewing out a camshaft. As far as the rotating assembly goes, it has to be stock appearing so I could go with a scat or similar rotating assembly so long as its stock weights in everything.

DanH, we are allowed to use a 500cfm Holley 4412 carb. Been trying to get ahold of the head tech guy at the track to see I they'll allow a jet, quick fuel, or Willy's oval track carb. While on the subject of fuel and what not, who like E85 and who doesn't? IMHO I think it's great for the budget but what about consistency issues in the mixing of it vs spending the money to go with I higher octane race gas at 6.00+ a gallon.

What is everyone's preference on heads? From what I've read, which is as much as I could find in the last week, I feel like the N351 and the Windsor sr are the two best heads. Which is better?
 

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Mroldfart, thanks for that advice. I'll definitely keep that in mind when spewing out a camshaft. As far as the rotating assembly goes, it has to be stock appearing so I could go with a scat or similar rotating assembly so long as its stock weights in everything.

DanH, we are allowed to use a 500cfm Holley 4412 carb. Been trying to get ahold of the head tech guy at the track to see I they'll allow a jet, quick fuel, or Willy's oval track carb. While on the subject of fuel and what not, who like E85 and who doesn't? IMHO I think it's great for the budget but what about consistency issues in the mixing of it vs spending the money to go with I higher octane race gas at 6.00+ a gallon.

What is everyone's preference on heads? From what I've read, which is as much as I could find in the last week, I feel like the N351 and the Windsor sr are the two best heads. Which is better?
think I said what a 4412 is .

fuel , at 10.5 C/R , thats pump gas with a gallon or two mixed in , if whant to play it safe. 4412 would have to be mod for E85

N head , what do you think that head was made for ...Racing

BTW the tech chevy dudes have no idea about Fords . you will be one of the few , if not the only Ford power

add. rules don't outlaw a 331 , a crank and rods new cost is less than $550 and is lighter than sbc or 351W's , plus a total lighter engine . whats does that tell you ?
 

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Discussion Starter #15
My bad Dan, misread that. I guess one positive thing of it being a Chevy dominated class and racetrack for that matter is besides the dizzy being up front on a ford...I'd bet that no one could tell the sufferance between a Windsor and a Cleveland nor the difference between a 8.2,9.2, and 9.5 block. That would allow me some wiggle room as far as motor combo, I will have to consider the 331/347 combo. I have no problem modifying a gas carb to run e85.
 

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I'm leaning towards a 347 for the best build. Danh makes a good point, but I think the extra cubes offset that.

How many r's do you hit at the end of the straight now, and how many coming off the corner?
Does the track have a GEAR rule?
Can you run a 180 header? Don't think it will make or hurt power, but it'll damn sure mess with everyones heads if tech will let you by....grinzzz...

You never said how much everyone is cheated up?...How close does tech check?
 

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rules do state no crossover headers , leaves 180's out

when running a Ford , tech will ball check and puff , plus best to have a window on the left side of o/pan
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Yes unfortunately no 180 headers. Tech is pretty good at staying I top of things yet there is one guy who runs a bmod here and runs consistsantlap times that would put him top 10 with the a/mods so if that tells you anything how they do. I know for a fact that guy cheats a lot as far as engine and car set up.

I know redline rpm isn't limited in the spec engines like it is with the crate motor so I was thinking 6250-6500 redline, and corner exit rpms at 4500-4750ish. There is. It a rear head rule but I know a lot of guys run a 5.90 to a 6.20 rear gear.
 

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Yes unfortunately no 180 headers. Tech is pretty good at staying I top of things yet there is one guy who runs a bmod here and runs consistsantlap times that would put him top 10 with the a/mods so if that tells you anything how they do. I know for a fact that guy cheats a lot as far as engine and car set up.

I know redline rpm isn't limited in the spec engines like it is with the crate motor so I was thinking 6250-6500 redline, and corner exit rpms at 4500-4750ish. There is. It a rear head rule but I know a lot of guys run a 5.90 to a 6.20 rear gear.
you want a redline of 6500 rpm , forget about smaller cubes

there is only two types of builds imo , one to win and the other is for last place . the later one is an easy build
 
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