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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have a 351c 4v with closed chambered heads and i was wondering what would be some good power building components to match up with the cam i'm choosing to install. The motor is in a 72 gran torino so it is a heavey car and i would like it to still be able to get off the line pretty quick. The cam i'm going to install is a crane powermax cam with duration @ .050" int 226/exh 236 and lift of int .528/exh .536. would an edelbrock performer intake be good for this application or should i step up to a single plane manifold like a weiand xcellerator intake? what would be a good stall converter for my c6 tranny with this cam? Would 3000 be too much? I want this motor to be somewhat streetable but also be able to run it down the 1/4 mile. I was also planning on throwing a holley 750 double pumper on top. Is that enough carb? Would hooker competition headers work well with this combination? Any advice would help. Thanx
 

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If the motor is not pinging now, the cam will probably be OK. Use a 750 vacuum secondary instead of a DP. you need torque with that heavy car - big DPs, single plane intakes, high stall converters don't go along with that. The Edelbrock air gap might be a good intake in spite of the port mismatch. For that cam, look at a 2400~2600ish stall unit. If the car has a low gear, like a 3.25 or 3.50 then around 2400 will be the better choice.

Otherwise - if you want it to haul, look at a 230+ cam with a Torquer intake, 3000+ stall converter and a 4.11 rear gear. Maybe a 700DP on that setup.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hey ckelly thanx for the reply. With the edelbrock rpm air gap manifold would i need to get the intake ports machined or would it be a good thing to have the smaller ports to help build torque? In your opinion what is a good cam/intake/rear gear/stall setup to use for the 351c that will build good enough torque to move that heavy car off the line and still have lots of power?
2nd- is that setup you mentioned with the torquer intake pretty streetable? would it meet the requirements for torque to move my torino? will I need to upgrade crank, rods, or pistons? With 4.11 gears would it make it down the quarter mile, with a pretty much stock bottom end, without pushing the rpms too far? Sorry for asking so many questions. im excited that i have people who know alot about the clevelands and can help me here.
one last question: what would be a good specific cam for that setup you mentioned with the torquer intake? Thanks ckelly
 

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I like the Torker, 3k stall, 4.11 gear recommendations. I think it will do everthing you are asking. When you start talking dual plane intakes and small cams with 4V heads, you are REALLY mismatched.

If your bottom end is in good condition, there should be no problems with it running with this setup.

A lot of people ask "will it still be streetable?". This setup would be extremely mild - imo. My car is a street car, driven when the weather is nice. I drive it to work. I take the kids to softball practice. I hit the local cruise nights. .750+ lift cam, 5500 rpm stall, Strip Dom intake, 12.5:1 comp., 4.88 gears. It all comes down to what YOU want to live with on the street.

Get the torker, 3k stall, 4.11 gears, and really think about the cam. I'd get away from hyd., but that's just me. I'll bet you could find some of that stuff on an auction site - heck they may even be my auctions!! oh, he he, sorry 'bout that!!
 

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Ckelly is spot-on, but from one '72 guy, to another... you might also want to really consider a "Blue-Thunder" dual-plane intake. It's patterned from a Holman-Moody design and is an EXCELLENT piece, good to nearly 7,000 rpm's. Talked another buddy of mine into running one and he was <U>quite</U> pleased. They're not cheap, but then neither will be a Strip Dominator (they've been out of production for some time, so you'll have to wait for one to come up), which DOES have the reputation of being one of the best intakes out there for a 4V Cleveland.... when you can find one.

Another '72 buddy of mine runs a 377C with a Comp Cams 282S solid lifter cam and an 830DP. It's a single pattern cam w/ 236* @ .050". He considers it a "mild" combination. I've driven it. Very nice! Weight aside, if the gearing is right, it's pretty hard to overcam/carb a Cleveland. They seem to love it.

You're right about the weight... they need some leverage coming out of the hole. I'm running 28" tires w/ a 3.50 gear and 2000+ stall converter, and THAT noise has to change. I'll be swapping out the gears for a set of 4.11's or 4.33's if I stay with the 275/60-15's, and maybe a set of 4.56's if I go to a taller tire. That would put the rpm's around 3000-3200 @ 55-60 mph... easily tolerable for a weekend cruiser, and right where my particular motor REALLY turns on! LOL!! Also need to swap out the TC for one in the 2800 rpm range.

Last, don't know what you're running for an exhaust, but FPA makes a specific Cleveland long-tube header for these cars and I can tell you first-hand that their stuff fits, and have <U>no</U> ground clearance issues whatsoever. Top notch stuff. Also, a full 3" system WILL fit under one of these things!


Best of luck!

Kevin
 

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You can do some research over on 351cleveland.net. Glad you mentioned the Blue Thunder - forgot about that one, they have a good rep.

The port mismatch will be there with the new air gap and with the old Ed dual plane for the 351C-4V. It won't hurt anything on a steet motor. BUT - there is nothing wrong with running a good dedicated 4V intake like the BT. I would steer you away from the Weiand 4V because it's weak. The Weiand 2V is a great intake for the 2V, but the 4V comes up a little short. My first 4V was an open chamber engine, 9.5:1, dual plane Ed intake, 750VS carb and 3.7 gears, 2200 stall 11" converter. It would smoke the BFG 275-50 x 15s at the drop of a hat and run mid 8's in the 8th mile (about mid-high 13s) in a 3400 lb car. 4V ports respond well to good gears and a decent converter. I run a 3400 now and it's still really too tight for racing, drives fine on the street.

On the cam - that really depends. If you are reworking the engine and will use new flat tops and zero deck the block, then something like a Crane 521141 ( 238/248 solid flat tappet would work well. If you are not going through the short block then you may have quench clearance issues - as in too much. If so, then you still don't want to run too small a cam because it's going to be detonation sensitive on pump gas. The H-288-2 (524421) Crane -226/230- that I run in my 2V would likely be the smallest hydro you'd want to run. If compression stays above 10:1, more likely the H-292 (524551) which is a 230/234. The problem with the H-292 is that is has less overlap than the H-288 (65 vs 70) and a wider lobe center (114 vs 110), which smooths the idle some but gives up a bunch up top. I think the hydros could use about 4 more degrees on the exhaust but they've been in the lineup for a long time and my H-288 works really well. Ask also over on the 335 - lots of 351C folks hang there.


_________________

1967 Falcon 4 door w/351C - Owner built, owner abused.
70 Mustang 302 / 06 Ranger, 04 SuperCrew parts hauler
http://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ckelly on 5/19/06 9:59pm ]</font>
 

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Whaddya want to do with the car? That's what should drive the combo.

Cruisin Saturday night? Driving long distances Sunday afternoon? Drags? Each one would augur for a different grind.

I'd match the cam to the car, and not vice versa. Event timing, etc, I'd call several of the good cam manufacturers and listen to what they have to say. There was a good story on that here not too long ago -- with computer machining equipment, the can custom grind whatever you want, or they might have something on the shelf that works perfect.

As for LSA, split profiles, etc, you should see what the guys over on the 351 boards with your basic combo are recommending. A lot of the old cams like the Crane Fireball were ground to pretty narrow lobe centers which made em bitchin on the top end and soft as butter down low, IMHO, a big part of the reason the 351C has an unfair rap as having ports that are 'too big'. You can't treat a Cleveland like just another engine.

IMO. if you have the cash, go for a stroker crank and some good rods, the extra cubes will go a long way to putting those ports to work. 377/393 would be sweet.

Be careful how deep you go with the gears and the convertor, you can make a car that will ET like an SOB but be miserable on the street (at least when its time to fill up!) Your '72 is probably every bit of 4000# so you might want to go for something that's going to have some good out of the hole grunt. Takes cubic inches to do that.

Oh yeah, and get rid of the stock valves because their heads pop off like dandelions.

Good luck
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
thanks to all of you who helped out. i'm actually thinking of going with the setup with the torquer intake and the 3000 stall converter and 4.11 gears. i have a 2 1/2 inch flowmaster exhaust on my torino. is that enough for it to breathe or will it need to b 3"? would hooker comp headers or hooker super comp headers b better?

Im planning on driving this car around town every now and then but also would like to be able to take it to the strip and make a descent run down the quarter mile. i would also like it to have lots of power for fun on the streets.
i was planning on putting one piece valves due to the stories ive read about valvetrain malfunctions.
Thanks again guys
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Oh ya and another question: what is an estimate of what it would cost to get the deck to zero? would i need to replace the stock pistons with some flat top pistons? Thanks
 

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I have a 351c, 4v closed chambers. The cam is a 246/256 solid roller, 11.1:1 compression, single plane intake. I am now running a 3.89 rear, with a t5 and it is a blast to drive around town. Power comes on at 3500, but there is plenty of power at 2000-3000 to be a driver. Idle is rough and sometimes makes the power brakes a bit solid but other than that it is pretty nice.
 

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This is for dsfordguy, I have comp cams 282s new in box, edelbrock torker and holley strip dominator .Manifolds in great condition, I was the only owner, no damage to any of them. All for sale and a few other cleveland parts. Email me for the prices under my username, or anybody else that might be interested, but you'll have to pay the shiping.
Ken
 

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Costs $120 here to get a block decked. You'd have to tear the engine completely down, so you'd have to judge what needed replacement at that time. If the engine is running good now, you may just be able to add a cam and intake. NOTE - all the cams I mentioned will likely (solid WILL have to have) adjustable rockers. If you have the stock bolt down setup, you'll have to remove and mod the heads. If you want to run the Crane conversion kit, then you have to stay hydro, keep it under about .550 lift and try to stay under 300 lbs open spring pressure.
 

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Oh yeah, I completely forgot about the adjustable rocker situation. Wow, mine have been adjustable for so long, I completely over looked that!!

CK is right. You should get the heads machined for adjustable rocker arms before you go any further.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
hey ckelly.
So what all should be done for my cleveland to work with that crane 521141 cam with 238/248 duration? what needs to be done to block, pistons, heads, or anything you can think of? Second, if i can't get ahold of a bt intake for a while will the torquer intake work ok with my heavy car? would i need to upgrade any of my bottom end for the higher rpms? Thanx ckelly
 

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Well, I'm collecting parts for the next engine right now and it will run that cam. I'll be using Clevite 77 bearings, stock crank, rods magged (I may polish the beams), peaned, ARP bolts, resize, TRW flat top pistons, speed pro moly rings. We'll run 0035~004 wall clearance. I'll get the block raw bored then mock it up to get the deck clearance and then cut the deck according to what I measure, as close to a zero average as possible (you end up with some a little down and some a little up).

I am reworking a pair of D1AE-GA closed heads (about 10.6~10.8:1 - depending on where the chambers end up) - Ferrea stainless valves, Crane double springs, Comp titanium retainers a 10 degree locks, phospor/bronze guildes, Jomar stud girdle, 7/16 studs. The heads will get a mild port and I'll install Parker Racing port tongues to fill the lower part of the intake ports. A Funnelweb 4V and a ProForm'ed 750 DP wil be on top. I expect around 420~440 HP out of it, more or less. Nothing real fancy, built so I don't need to rev it to the moon to get nice power and put together with good parts so it lasts a good long time.

_________________

1967 Falcon 4 door w/351C - Owner built, owner abused.
70 Mustang 302 / 06 Ranger, 04 SuperCrew parts hauler
http://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ckelly on 5/20/06 12:54pm ]</font>
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Hey ckelly, im exploring my options on what i can do with my cleveland. What would be the biggest cam my motor could handle without getting the block decked and with the crane conversion kit for my heads? What would probably be the best intake, stall, and gear for that cam? Thanks so much!
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Hey ckelly, im exploring my options on what i can do with my cleveland. What would be the biggest cam my motor could handle without getting the block decked and with the crane conversion kit for my heads? What would probably be the best intake, stall, and gear for that cam? Thanks so much!
 

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Hmm. after reading the post here, nice to see alot of people chiming in on the cleve.
I know this will probably be stupid of me...but asside from the issues of the factory pedstal rockers, and their limitations...when it comes to adjustable rockers...maybe just me being lazy, but is it an absolute nessesity to have the heads milled for studs on a mild motor?
My 1972 351c CJ is this example. I don't mind messing with stuff...but call me lazy, I just don't want to mess with the valve lash, etc, for fear of screwing something up.
is it bad I'm content with wanting to put a set of good pedestal rockers on my cleve and call it a day?

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eliteman76
1972 Torino GTS 351c 4v cj 4 speed
1979 F150 4x4
1992 Explorer
1999 Contour

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: eliteman76 on 5/22/06 1:02pm ]</font>
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Hey heres one for anyone out there. What would be the best power building combo i can go with without decking the block? I'm looking for cam, intake, stall, gear, valve spring combination. The reason for not wanting to deck the block is that a few years ago i bought a reman short block cleveland for my 72 gran torino and it has only accumulated 5000 or so miles. im going to look through it while it is out but if everything is ship shape i dont really want to disassemble the short block assembly in order to get it decked.

Second, if i can run a pretty nice solid flat tappet cam cam without decking the block I will prob get the heads milled for guide plates and screw-in studs( wallet willing). Otherwise i will prob go with a pretty nice hydro set up with the crane conversion kit.

I'm pulling the motor this wednesday and i'm going to totally confirm that i have the closed chambered heads and not the open. I'm pretty sure that I remember having the quench chambers but i"m not 100% sure so for now we will discuss setups for a closed chambered motor hopefully i don't run into a disappointment of having the open chamber heads.

Ill be glad to here anyones input. Thanks guys
 
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