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Discussion Starter #1
Hello All, I've got a good running 352 in my '64 Galaxie 500, but like any guy I want more power! I'm putting together build ideas, with hopes of doing something next year. My research says I can bore it out to 4.050, and install a stock 390 rotating assembly, sticking with standard bore 390 parts. The other option is to go to 4.080 and choose one of the many 390 .030+ stroker kits out there. In addition I'm planning on a mild cam upgrade, an aluminum intake, a Holley 750, and maybe some shorty-headers to top it off. The goal is to keep the car as close to stock as possible, yet have the power I need, when I need it...on pump gas. And yes, I drive this car a lot. Mostly on the highway, but it's no trailer queen.

My questions:

Is taking the bore on the 352 to 4.080 too much? It's my understanding the block is the same as a 390, but I don't want to make any assumptions.

Secondly, any suggestions in regard to the rest of my plan are welcome. I'm trying to make mistakes on paper, so if I'm headed in the wrong direction feel free let me know.

Just so everyone knows, I'm wanting to use 352 because its original and in good shape, and it seems a waste not to.

Thanks
 

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Always good to sonic check, but I have never seen a 352 that couldn't go to 4.08

I wasn't clear from your question on whether you wanted to go 396 cid, 416 cid, or 445 cid, but if you are buying a new crank, by all means go 445. It's a GREAT combo.

Keep in mind you'll have to balance it, which adds to the build by 300 bucks or so, but in the end, the 445 is a very nice combo for the street
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for the reply. I haven't decided on crankshaft, but have been leaning towards buying a complete stroker kit from Survival Motorsports. Probably a 3.980 stroke/416 cid. That may be too much for what I need though, which is why I'm asking you guys.
 

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Here's the deal, if you are buying crank, pistons and connecting rods, there really is no reason to liming cubes. In fact, the 445 will be milder in behavior at the same power level. Barry will likely tell you that, I have known him a very long time, he'll steer you right

If you are not buying connecting rods the 416 is slightly cheaper, because it uses a 6.49 rod out of a 390, unfortunately it will not use the 6.54 short stroke connecting rod.

Don't worry about too much power, there were 460s in mellow grandma cars as well as 455s Olds and Buicks, 500 Caddys, the cubes don't make it radical
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks again, that's the kind of thing I'm looking for. Learning what can be done with the FE motor is interesting for sure. I sent Barry an e-mail prior to my post here, haven't heard back, but I'm assuming he's a busy guy. I'm reading his book on FEs at the moment, and look forward to his suggestions. In my build, my biggest concern is not taking it too far. Aside from leaving a teenaged, nipple-grabber in a rice-grinder behind at a stop light, I seriously doubt I'll be doing any drag racing. I do however want the old Galaxie to have the umph whenever its called for. Right now she cruises fine, but it takes awhile to get there. I drive the car as much as possible during the summer and fall, mainly to work and back. And I also want to be able to do road trips every now and then, so the motor needs to be able to deal with pump gas and long hauls as well. Originally I was just going to bore the 352 .030 over and add a few extras...but then I discovered all this stroker crap, and now I fear I'm doomed:eek:
 

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Tough question on the heads.
I'd be hard pressed to spend money on C1AE heads when I could get Edelbrock aluminum heads for not much more.

I think the wise engine to build is a 445, and if you want it tolerable for daily driving just use a smaller cam. I have never driven one, but I suspect a 445 with a 270s cam would idle it 600rpms and roar when needed. It would just probably lay down early (5000 rpms maybe?). A solid flat tappet would certain fit the period correct feel as well.
 

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Nothing wrong with an early 352 head, but add up the costs and see if they are worth it. If you need seats, guides, valves, springs and assembly, often the Edelbrocks are a better buy, but sometimes they aren't if you have decent prices in your area

Deeproots gave a decent recommendation for a cam, I did a 270H in a 445 for my truck and it worked out nice, but realize that it's tough to buy off the shelf parts to build a 445 at under 10:1 compression, and 10:1 with a 270S or 270H is really right on the ragged edge of being fuel friendly in a 445. I actually retarded my 270H by 4 degrees and it did well, line up dot to dot, it likely would have been a bit more fussy. Less cam would be tougher unless you bought custom pistons to drop the compression
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Thanks, after reading Barry's book I was thinking Edelbrock heads as well. In my other research on 352 heads the only thing I could find beyond ordinary was in the 352HP, built in '60, I believe. Mine is just a stock 352, built in '64. As to the compression issue, if go with a stroker kit from Survival I'd probably opt for the 9.8:1 pistons to keep things pump friendly. Still researching the cam, but I'll definitely keep you suggestions in mind. Thanks again!
 

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ok, you have an 18,000 lb car and you want quicker acceleration and still want to be able to cruise for days at 75 mph.

the best way to do this is to run an engine with bigger displacement . . the bigger the displacement, the faster it will accelerate.

you will accelerate much more quickly if you change your rear gear ratio to one that is numerically higher, however, that will increase your engine rpm at freeway speed.

if your gears are currently around 2.80, i would go to at least 3.00 for your app no matter what engine size you use . . 3.23 is the numerically highest i would use.

going up 1 gear size with your current engine will be slightly noticeable . . going up by 2 sizes will be very noticeable but still wont be a drastic change in acceleration feel.

going up 3 or more sizes will be a drastic change in acceleration feel.

heres a very cool an rpm vs mph calculator you can play with . . enter 1.0 for trans ratio and 2.80, 3.00, and 3.23 for gear ratio and it will compare all 3 at the same time.

RPM/MPH From Gear Ratio Calculator by Wallace Racing

you absolutely must get rid of those horrible exhaust manifolds if you want to increase power . . you can buy shorty headers or old cast iron factory 427 headers from a 64 top oiler etc if you can find therm . . you may also be able to use 428 cj cast iron headers but the repos are $1,000.00.

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Discussion Starter #12
Thanks Barnett, I'll add your info to my research. Not sure what the gear ratio currently is in the car, but I'll make it a point to check as I put my plan together.
 

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No prob, you're welcome . . Here's some more info for you.

I definitely do not believe that bigger is always better even if the cost to go bigger is the same . . There is such a thing as too much of a good thing or more power [and less mileage] than one wants or needs.


There is not one good thing on the list below imo.

Boring the engine out to .050", is not a big deal if the cylinder thickness is ok . . Going to .080" even if they are ok is something I wouldn't do in your case . . Although some people have done this, imo, it is not a prudent thing to do because you first have to have the cylinder walls sonic checked to make sure they are thick enough, and this can cost around $250.00 . . Some of the problems are that they could be thin on one side due to a core shift and/or they could be thin in areas from 50 years of rust eating away at them inside the water jacket.

Also, even if you get away with boring it out that far, what are you going to do if you keep it long enough to need to bore it again?

Also, the more stroke you have, the greater the cooling requirements are.

The thinner the cylinder walls are, the greater the cooling requirements are.

The heavier the car is, the greater the cooling requirements are.


There are several good things on the list below imo.

Imo, the safest thing to do is simply use a 3.98, or 4.125 crank and have a set of custom pistons made . . I have had lots of custom pistons made . . JE will make them for around $900.00 . . Some of the other places will make them for around $800.00 . . The PROBE stroker pistons are around $550.00 . . If you add $550.00 to the $250.00 the sonic check would cost, you are at $800.00 . . For just 0 dollars more than that amount, you can have custom pistons made, and for $150.00 more, you can have a set of one of the best pistons on the market, PLUS there will be no concern that your engine will be hard to cool in your 4,000 lb car, AND you can still bore it out again if you need.

If your bore is good enough, you can just get pistons made that are only .010" or .020" bigger which will preserve even more of your cylinder wall thickness.


A 3.980" crank with a 4.030" bore = 406 ci.

A 4.125" crank with a 4.030" bore = 420 ci.

I can tell you that increasing a 302 engine 45 ci to 347 ci, then adding even just a mild performance cam and a little better head flow etc, is a very noticeable increase in power.

Increasing a 352 by 54 ci to a 406, and adding a even just a mild performance cam and a little better head flow etc, is a very noticeable increase in power.

It will not turn it into a fire breathing tire burner with mild mods, but even just doing stroking it to 406 ci and getting a little more head, intake and exhaust flow, will make a day and night difference in power, AND if you also change the rear gears by even 1 step with this increase in engine power, it will be a BIG change.

I would opt for the 406 over the 390 at the very least . . If you want big time bottom and mid range torque, I would go 420 . . The cost is exactly the same

Even with the 4.125 stroke and 6.7" long rod, the rod ratio is still a very favorable 1.62.

A 347 stroker with the long rod is around 1.5, which is worse and they rev those to 6,000 rpm all the time.


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OK, I was bored, so here’s some info on how to build a do it yourself 406 OR 420 ci stroker for the same price as other kits with equal quality parts.

You will see that the Eagle cranks are $200.00 less than the Scat cranks, however, for your app, they are way more than good enough, so there is no reason not to buy one.


CUSTOM PISTON CALL FOR INFO [the compression height for a 10.17 block with 4.125 stroke would be 1.4085] I would use 4032 material for your app, plus it might cost less ........................ Approximately $850.00.

RaceTec & AutoTec Pistons specializes in custom pistons for Sprint Cars, Dirt Modified & Dirt

http://www.rosspistons.com/contact.php

JE Pistons Manufactures Quality Forged Pistons for the Domestic Automotive, Sport Compact,

Powersports and Racing Markets

Automobile Forged Pistons & Performance Parts - Wiseco Piston Inc.



EXTERNAL BALANCED CAST CRANK

EAGLE 3.98 STROKE http://www.summitracing.com/parts/esp-104283980 .......................... $414.00

SCAT 3.98O STROKE 2.438 ROD JOURNAL http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sca-942810 ... $640.00


INTERNAL BALANCED CAST CRANK

EAGLE 4.125 STROKE EAGLE SPCLTY CAST CRANKSHAFT 104284125 ………............................ $478.00
Or have Summit order it and pay around $440.00 plus free shipping.

SCAT 4.125 STROKE LIGHTWEIGHT 2.200 ROD JOURNAL http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sca-9fe100 ........................................................................................................................... $ 640.00


FORGED H AND I BEAM RODS 6.700 LONG . . Get the correct big end to match the crank journal.

MISCELLANEOUS http://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/connecting-rods/make/ford/engine-size/6-4l-390/engine-family/ford-big-block-fe ........................... $450.00



EAGLE 4.125 STROKE INTERNAL BALANCED CRANK ............................................ $450.00
EAGLE FORGED H BEAM RODS ....................................................................... $450.00
CUSTOM FORGED PISTONS .......................................................................... $850.00
ANY BRAND OF PLASMA MOLY RINGS ........................................... Approximately $125.00
CLEVELITE ROD AND CRANK BEARINGS ............................................................ $125.00

TOTAL COST ............................................................................................ $2000.00
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To the original poster, a discussion similar to this one is in the thread below, before you purchase any parts, recommend you dig through this older post, especially if considering an Eagle crank for an FE

http://www.fordmuscleforums.com/all-ford-techboard/597362-just-another-390-thread.html

Also, be sure to have any aftermarket crank balanced to your needs, I don't remember if it's addressed in the post above, but what the companies call internally balanced, isn't.
 

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CUSTOM PISTONS

I just talked to Race Tec because I had to call them regarding some other pistons and I asked about custom pistons for you app and have posted the info below.

Race Tec was started by the previous owner of JE Pistons and they make very high quality pistons at a very reasonable price . . My friend Randy, whom worked at JE for many years now works there also . . If you call for info, anyone can help you, however, Randy knows most everything without having to look it up and he is a local race guy so he is extremely knowledgeable.

They make pistons from 4032 or 2618 material and said the 4032 would be fine for your application which is the material I previously suggested.

The custom pistons made from 4032 material are still only $695.00 and are called AUTO TEC . . The pistons made from 2618 material are $1034.00 and are called RACE TEC . . Dealers that buy in volume get $100.00 off.

Since these pistons are $155.00 less than the estimate I gave you, the previous estimated stroker crank total I posted will obviously be $155.00 lower.

They said their standard dish top is round with a quench ring around it . . Since both the Eddy heads and your heads have a quench pad in the chamber, I asked if they can make the top of the piston the same shape as the head chamber so it could utilize the full quench pad area in the head and they said no problem and that it would not cost any extra . . Some aftermarket pistons with a dish are made with an offset quench pad for this reason . . Some people debate the benefit of the quench pad or using a minimum squish clearance but I have always adhered to this clearance.

Here’s the specs I gave them which are close to what you would need for the 4.125 stroke crank and connecting rods I posted.

a. Pin diameter .990”

b. Compression height 1.4085” . . This puts it at 0 deck height with a 10.17" block . . You can have the block surface squared to the crank so the compression in each cylinder is even, however, that might be a little overkill for your app . . It might cost around $200.00 to do that . . You would need to calculate what final compression height you need once the block is done . . Either they, or your machinist, can to this for you.

c. The pin will be around .100 below the oil ring with this compression height.

d. 20 cc dish gives 9.66 compression with 4.030 bore, .003” deck height and 70 cc combustion chambers.

e. 4.030" diameter, but can be made to any diameter you want for the same price.

f. 1/16" ring thickness, but can be made to any thickness you want.

g. gas ports included

h. They have two basic skirt shapes which are the “bat wing” type which uses a narrow piston pin and the more traditional type with the wide pin and more skirt area . . I would ask them if it makes sense to use the design with more skirt area with the 4032 material for your app.


These are their two different skirt designs . . I would use the first one for your app.

................................



.............................. The one below is the "bat wing" design.



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Race Tec is indeed a very good piston and hard to beat for pricing and ease in building custom parts.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Thanks a ton, both you guys! Your input is exactly what I've been looking for. I've been putting a lot of study into this and want to get it right when I pull the trigger. I really want to use the 352 because the car is completely original and in fantastic shape, and I guess there's just something about keeping it that way and trying to get the most out of it that I can. I like the idea of the 4.30 bore, 4.125 crank, and custom pistons. Your input has definitely given me a good starting point!
 

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Thanks a ton, both you guys! Your input is exactly what I've been looking for. I've been putting a lot of study into this and want to get it right when I pull the trigger. I really want to use the 352 because the car is completely original and in fantastic shape, and I guess there's just something about keeping it that way and trying to get the most out of it that I can. I like the idea of the 4.30 bore, 4.125 crank, and custom pistons. Your input has definitely given me a good starting point!
No prob, you're welcome . . it's fun to see projects like this and fun to help spend someone elses money.

i have a bit more stuff i will be posting soon tonight.

keep in mind that you can even go just .010 or .020 over for the same price if your cylinders are good enough which will leave even MORE of the cylinder so you can likely bore it at least two times more if youn need, plus, as i mentioned, it will be easier to cool.

if you want to keep your your ORIG block forever and ever, i would do one of the custom stroker builds i posted . . its all common stuff except for the ultra cool custom pistons which are only a paultry $150.00 more than the probes.

i will tell you now that a lot of guys run race tec pistons in 1,000 hp plus cars, but they dont really advertise much, which is why a lot of people havent heard of them . . they rely on a lot of word of mouth advertising, and when you do that, your product better not fail.

i would gladly give up the few extra hp i would get from boring a cylinder in a stock engine another .050" or more for the obvious benefits of boring it as little as possible.
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Thanks a ton, both you guys! Your input is exactly what I've been looking for. I've been putting a lot of study into this and want to get it right when I pull the trigger. I really want to use the 352 because the car is completely original and in fantastic shape, and I guess there's just something about keeping it that way and trying to get the most out of it that I can. I like the idea of the 4.30 bore, 4.125 crank, and custom pistons. Your input has definitely given me a good starting point!
You do mean 4.03 bore right?

BTW the way I can't help but share my opinion one more time on the bore and stroke. FE blocks can split cylinders in extreme overbore cases, but I have never seen one with a cooling problem due to bore, the heat just isn't in that part of the cylinder.

That doesn't mean I don't like to save a bore, because I do, cylinder bore shape is critical to ring seal, and the more stable the bore is the longer the build will last and the more efficient it will be, so if you decide to go smaller on the bore, it's not bad in any way, it's just being more conservative than you need to be on this engine family.

The crank though, pass at your own risk. An out of the box Eagle is just not a very impressive piece, I have had them in my hands and keep going back to SCAT. It may last, it may balance, or it may need machine work and in some cases they have came apart. For some reason this forum doesn't like to hear this, but the best I can say is what I have said already, after that, odds are luck will be with you, especially at low power levels, and I truly hope it is
 
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