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I thought you might find the following dyno test interesting . . i found it on the net . . Basically if you stroke your engine to 406 or 420 ci and use your box stock, unported heads, with the stock valves, and stock intake, but install headers, a good carb and a COMP CAMS XE274H cam, you will get more tq and hp than he did throughout the entire rpm range, which means you will have a bit more power at low rpm’s than he did which it sounds to me like what you are looking for . . Not only that, you can get around the same power that he has but with a slightly smaller cam like the comp XE268H, which will mean it will have a milder idle than his if that’s what you want.


I have an XE268H in my 428CJ and have used them in stock 390 engines . . The engines sound like they have a slight cam but not more than a high perf production car would, and the engines were just a hair rough at idle so you knew it had a cam but it was FAR from rowdy or obnoxious.

The co,p XE series cams as well as the 270S cam that deeproots mentioned earlier, are all non roller cams which will be around $350.00 less than a roller cam and lifters . . If you are not on a budget, I would probably use a mild hydraulic [maintenance free] roller cam.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/thread/1301759802/Mighty+390+Dyno+Test+Results

10.5:1 compression
Comp XE274H cam
ford holley 735 cfm 428 cj carb
Crank, rods, distributor, manifold, carb and exhaust are stock factory original pieces.

We made 5 pulls on the Dyno using several interesting combinations. Here are the results:

Pull 1 (w/factory cast-iron exhaust manifolds) but aftermarket carb
Peak HP 322.6 @ 5100 RPM (Torque 332.2)
peak Torque 376.7 @ 3000 RPM

pull 2 (same as above)
Peak HP 322.8 @ 5200 RPM (Torque 326.0)
Peak Torque 378.7 @ 2900 RPM

Pull 3 (w/super stock headers)
Peak HP 370.5 @ 5200 RPM (Torque 374.2)
Peak Torque 432.9 @ 3100 RPM
Headers gave us an incremental 47.9 HP!!!!!

Pull 4 (w/super stock headers & carb replacement Stock Eliminator Holley 780)
Peak HP 375.3 @ 5200 RPM (Torque 379.1)
Peak Torque 441.4 @ 3100 RPM [/SIZE]
carb swap gave us an incremental 5HP & 8.5 CBTrq.

Pull 5 (w/super stock headers & carb replacement Stock Eliminator Quick Fuel 780)
Peak HP 378.0 @ 5200 RPM (Torque 381.8)
peak Torque 445.8 @ 3200 RPM

While fat, the brand new Quick Fuel NHRA Stock/Super Stock legal carb gave us an incremental 3HP & 4.4 CBTrq. While still room for improvement & fine tuning, the new Quick Fuel delivers an advantage over the stock Holley.[/SIZE]
Dyno video with stock exhaust manifolds.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUlPhS8iS1s

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How about the 352 heads, are they worth a rebuild?
CYLINDER HEADS

Here’s some info and prices in my area for cylinder head work in case you are considering using yours to save some money or keep the appearance more original but there's nothing wrong with the Eddy heads for your app and stock vs Eddys, the Eddys are the way to go.

Imo, based on my understanding of what you want to get out of your engine, your heads will provide what you want/need even with the bigger displacement from a stroker kit . . They have decent ports and don’t flow much less than the Eddy’s in stock form . . If bigger valves are installed and just minor work is done in to bowls, which is often called “pocket porting”, they will actually flow more than the eddy’s.

One thing you obviously give up is the aluminum head, however, if you don’t bore your engine out far, it will be easier to keep it running cool which may in turn reduce the potential for detonation if you run high compression.
Also, if you run a squish/quench clearance of around .035 to .042, it will reduce the potential for detonation even though it will increase the compression.

I occasionally try to make the squish clearance around .035" but I usually have to use Cometic head gaskets that cost around $90.00 each . . the cool thing about these other than the fact they come in a few different thicknesses, they also come in sizes that have the same, or similar size to the engine bore.

As you may be starting to see, everything has an affect on other things so everything is related to everything else.

For example, I am a freak for making engines run at no more than 190 degrees, but it sometimes requires a very big and very expensive cooling . . I also like to keep the intake manifold and carb as cool as possible so if the intake has a heat cross over I will block it and I occasionally also install thin phenolic spacers or thick carb gaskets . . in effect, the cooler air charge, will not only increase power a hair, it will also reduce the potential for detonation a hair, however, I live where it never gets extremely cold.

NEW VALVES ………………………………. $125.00 . . any size
VALVE SPRINGS ………………………….. $125.00
POCKET PORTING ……………………….. $400.00 . . optional
NEW GUIDES INSTALLED …………….. $160.00
HARDENED SEATS INSTALLED …….. $180.00 . . optional if yours are not wasted but isn’t a bad idea anyway at least on the exhaust side.
VALVE JOB ………………………………….. $400.00 . . a pair
SURFACE HEADS …………………………... $60.00 . . a pair
TOTAL ……………………………………… $14050.00

NEW EDDY HEADS …………………….. $2000.00


Below is a shop I have gotten some parts from and a lot of the budget minded 5.0 Ford guys get parts from an I haven’t heard anything bad about any of their parts including their valves or springs etc . . One of the problems with rebuilding the FE heads is the cost of the valves . . Just the stock replacements are around $200.00 a set . . Their stainless, high flow, undercut chrome stem chrome stem, dished head valves for an FE are only $125.00 . . I prefer to run hardened tips on stainless valves so if you used these valves and want to do that, you can buy lash caps for these from Summit etc.

$125.00

SS VALVES, FE FORD, CJ W/ 2.090/1.650, HIGH PERFORMANCE 428 - Alex's Parts Sales


$110.00

DUAL VALVE SPRING KIT, FE FORD W/ MODERATE TO LARGE PERFORMANCE CAMS - Alex's Parts Sales
FE FORD 352-428 Max Output -Drop In- Valve Spring Kit, Flat Tappet Engines - Alex's Parts Sales


All their FE parts.

FORD, FE 352, 360, 390, 410, 427, 428 - Alex's Parts Sales
 

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EXHAUST

I heard you bravely mention the word “headers” so ok, welcome to HELL.

If you have power steering, most long tubes may hit and if they do, they will need modification of some sort . . Most headers hang low on the car . . There is a company called FPA that makes mice headers . . Sometimes they even fit…sometimes they don’t, but theirs are tucked up under the car farther than anyone else’s . . If they don’t fit, they may modify them fir free or they may not . . Call and ask them.

The easiest option is to use short headers . . Sanderson and I think FPA make them . . The downside is that you will not get quite as much power from them as you would with long headers, HOWEVER, since you are not looking for a record breaking, 18,000 lb Galaxy, imo, it might be worth giving up a few hp for the ease of installation the short headers “should” provide.

If you have power steering and use the long tube headers, you will need to buy a $15.00 ram lowering bracket.

If you use the short headers, I would run a piece of 3” diameter pipe off the end that is at least 18” long then have a slow [not abrupt] taper to your final size which I would guess should be a minimum of 2 5/8” and a maximum of 3” . . The 2 5/8” or 2 3/4” will be far easier to bend and make fit.

I would also run a cross over tube or X pipe.


GASKETS

The Sandersons just use a thin bead of ultra high temp silicone . . I have never used them but that supposedly works . . I use mainly REMFLEX gaskets . . They will not ever burn out and the even seal warped flanges . . They were designed specifically for the 64 Galaxy . . Summit sells them and if they don't fit, you can EASILY return them within 30 days for a full refund if you don't scratch them.


THESE GUYS HAVE ORIGINAL FACTORY HEADERS

http://dscmotorsport.com/Manifolds/index.htm

This is just one of several styles . . they may need surfacing . . clean and paint them with eastwood cast iron color exhaust paint.




SANDERSONS AND HOOKERS AT SUMMIT RACING

http://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/headers/engine-size/5-8l-352/engine-family/ford-big-block-fe/year/1964/make/ford/model/galaxie


FPA

Ford Powertrain Applications



........................................................ SANDERSONS

.................................


................................................................ FPA TRI Y

..



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INTAKE MANIFOLD

In my experience, the new eddy performer will give good torque up to around 3500 but then falls off . . it may or may not be what you want . . If you get one, I would try it with and without a 1" spacer of some sort.

The most common upgrade is a factory ford police interceptor intake . . they can occasionally be found on ebay or you can by them from the secret site below for around $450.00.

Make sure the intake runners are the same size or smaller than the ones on the heads you use.


DSC Motorsports - Part Details




EDELBROCK F-427 . . It's similar the the one above.

DSC Motorsports - Part Details

 

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I changed my 352 to a 390. While the increase in power was noticeable it was not head snapping by any means. Since you need to buy new rods and crank anyway I agree with the idea of stroking, just to make it worth your while.

As for spending money on the drag racing parts for street machine, I do not think they will give you nearly as much for your money as stroking. Though a little hotter rear end might be a good value.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
Yes, My427stang, meant 4.030, that was a typo...my bad. My head's crammed with numbers from all of this great info you guys are throwing my way. The good thing is I was toying with chasing down a 390, based on how the stroker kits are set up, along with what everyone was saying. Now though I think I'm settled on working with the 352. As mentioned in earlier posts, I'm not after a race motor, just one that performs well across the board. Kind of like the idea of raising the hood and having it look like a blue stock 352, but knowing the guts are a different animal. If I piece it together right, the only thing that'll look out of place are the shorty headers. Thanks again to everyone for all your help...this mid-life crisis crap is a blast!
 

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ok i would use your stock heads but do mild port work and buy the valves i posted . . this will increas your flow by around 20 percent which is a lot . . no need to do an expensive full port job . . use a factory intake . . a gt390 will be a little taller than yours but will flow better . . a 428 cobra jet one will be taller and look more different but will flow the best out of the 100 lb iron units . . forget the cheesy steel headers and buy the factory iron ones i posted . . ask dsc which ones will fit your app . . nobody will ever know they did not come on your particular car but they did come on the 427 64 galaxies . . buy an orig factory holley or a new gold zinnc one and change the flooat bowls and cross over tube so you dont have that cheesy looking right side chrome fuel line and rubber fuel hose . . buy a 67 gt 390 air cleaner with the screens and chrome lid and chrome valve covers if you want or use your stock one . . cut 3 holes iin the bck for more air flow . . theres your 400 hp stroker sleeper.t
 

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there are a zillion cams but for a non roller cam the comp xe262h will idle very smooth and will have monster throttle response and good bottom end . . the xe268h will have a slightly noiceable idle and a little less bottom end and it would prefer at least 3.00 gears for your app and 3.23 would be ideal if you want really strong acceleration but it will be revving a bit higher at freeway speed . . if you dont want to change your gears because you like low rpm at high speed and if you dont need to roasst the tires from a stop then do not get the 268 cam . the 262 or similar will get er done . . . if you use the sleeper parts i mentioned and the 268 cam and just a tiny 1800 to 2000 rpm stall converter and 3.23 gears it will snap your head back and roast the bejesus out of the tiress till the cows come home . . been there done that . . . .
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Barnett, are there any concerns I need to be aware of in regard to push rod length with the cam you are suggesting? As to the intake, I was thinking of one made by Blue Thunder that Barry mentioned in his book. Apparently it performs well, and also has a closer to stock appearance than the Edelbrock. I may be mistaken but I seem to recall it also has the crankcase breather at the rear, which is a consideration since my stock valve covers do not have a location for a PCV set up.
 

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Barnett, are there any concerns I need to be aware of in regard to push rod length with the cam you are suggesting? As to the intake, I was thinking of one made by Blue Thunder that Barry mentioned in his book. Apparently it performs well, and also has a closer to stock appearance than the Edelbrock. I may be mistaken but I seem to recall it also has the crankcase breather at the rear, which is a consideration since my stock valve covers do not have a location for a PCV set up.
are you going to assemble the engine yourself?

the cam size does not determine push rod length . . if you want to set your valve train up PROPERLY, you can do what is often referred to as "setting the valve train geometry" or "setting the push rod geometry" . . this is a bit of a pita but i often do it . . it may or may not increase performance by a few hp . . it depends on how far it is off . . if you d not do it, you will never, ever, know the difference, but i or someone else here can explain in step by step detail exactly how to do it if you want.


ok i'll be back in a minute.

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ok, none one here likes to guess at things because we all just want you to get exactly what you want, although some of us might use slightly different approaches [parts] to get people there, therefore, it would be FAR better for you if you could answer the few questions below, otherwise, you might end up with what we want but not what you want . . these are the same questions i always asked people at the shop, and when they said they want a 400 hp engine, i would take them for a ride in a car with a real 400 hp engine and most of them quickly changed their mind and lowered their requirements, lol . . please answer them one at a time.

1. do you want a mild, moderate or nasty dragster type idle?

2. do you want the engine to have no shake at idle, or a little shake, or do you want it to shake your teeth out?

3. do you want a lite to lite drag car or a freeway flier or inbetween?

4. do you want to cruise at 60, or 70 or 80 mph for long periods of time?

5. are you willing to change the rear gears?

6. do you want to roast the bejesus out of the tires?

7. are you willing to install an overdrive transmission?

8. do you want the exhaust inside the cab to be quiet, slightly noisy or obnoxiously loud?

9. do you have power steering?

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HEAD DIMENSIONS

C1AE . . . . . PORTS . IN 2.34 X 1.34 . . EX 1.84 X 1.28 . VALVES 2.02 1.55
COBRA JET . PORTS . IN 2.34 X 1.34 . . EX 1.84 X 1.28 . VALVES 2.08 1.65


INTAKE MANIFOLDS

Blue thunder makes 4 different intakes . . You would want the base model, but it might be a bit of overkill for your app imo . . It looks almost identical to the factory Police intake, but it is not . . It is for even higher performance apps . . I really think for your app, you still might be better off with something else.

BLUE THUNDER INTAKES

INTAKE MANIFOLDS (F.E.)


The base model is p/n M-428CJ-4V



CIAE . PORTS . 2.14 x 1.16 . . Area = 2.48





POLICE INTERCEPTOR . PORTS . 1.94 x 1.24.





1968 GT390



428 CJ . ports 1.94 x 1.24 . . Area = 2.41 sq”






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Discussion Starter #33
Barnett, here's your answers:

1. Mild to moderate. I want someone to wonder a bit what's under the hood.
2. No shake
3. In between, although most of the driving this car does is highway.
4. 80...I live in Montana, a while back we didn't have a speed limit, so that should give you a clue. Lots of room and just a handful of HP's
5. Possibly, but I'm guessing I won't need to.
6. No. I bust my ass for what I have, I'm not into destroying something I worked hard for.
7. I may be interested in converting the car to manual down the road. The closer I get to death, the less I'm going to care if the car is original or not.
8. Slightly noisy, I like a good rumble and my hearing is crap after swinging a hammer my whole life.
9. Yes.

As for the rebuild, yes I intend to do it myself, which is why I'm researching all I can before I start. I did a few when I was a kid, but that was before internet, cell phones, and remote controls, so I don't mind confessing to being a "rookie". Not afraid of a challenge though, and you can rest assure that I'll have a good handle on things before I ever turn a bolt.

On the push rod thing, I guess it was my understanding that once you started increasing your cam size, it was important to pay close attention to the valve train assembly, including push rod size and how it's positioned. I just wanted to make sure I covered that base if I was going to move beyond stock.
 

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Barnett, here's your answers:

1. Mild to moderate. I want someone to wonder a bit what's under the hood.
2. No shake
3. In between, although most of the driving this car does is highway.
4. 80...I live in Montana, a while back we didn't have a speed limit, so that should give you a clue. Lots of room and just a handful of HP's
5. Possibly, but I'm guessing I won't need to.
6. No. I bust my ass for what I have, I'm not into destroying something I worked hard for.
7. I may be interested in converting the car to manual down the road. The closer I get to death, the less I'm going to care if the car is original or not.
8. Slightly noisy, I like a good rumble and my hearing is crap after swinging a hammer my whole life.
9. Yes.

As for the rebuild, yes I intend to do it myself, which is why I'm researching all I can before I start. I did a few when I was a kid, but that was before internet, cell phones, and remote controls, so I don't mind confessing to being a "rookie". Not afraid of a challenge though, and you can rest assure that I'll have a good handle on things before I ever turn a bolt.

On the push rod thing, I guess it was my understanding that once you started increasing your cam size, it was important to pay close attention to the valve train assembly, including push rod size and how it's positioned. I just wanted to make sure I covered that base if I was going to move beyond stock.

ok, xlnt . . all that can easily be achieved ill get back to you in a bit and others probably will also so just weed thru everything and use what fits your needs.
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Thanks, the info you've already provided has been huge. I've probably owned 6 F250's over the years, all early seventies. They all had FE motors and I kept them running pretty good. Had no idea though until I started poking around there were so many similarities between 352 thru the 428. To be honest, its been a bit overwhelming, but this site has helped me start to get a handle on what I want to do. I look forward to your suggestions.
 

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Answers to your replies.


1. The sound will have to be done thru the exhaust only because you do not want it to shake at idle.

2. Ok grandpa, we can do that . . I and others will post cam suggestions that will achieve that and still deliver good overall power . . I would definitely stay away from cams that are “bigger” than the ones below, otherwise you will get some degree of engine shake at idle . . In general, the wider the lobes are on the cam, which is called LSA [lobe center angle], the smoother it will idle if all other aspects are the same . . Most stock factory cams have an LSA of around 115.

COMP XE256H . . This will idle as smooth as a 59 Lincoln but will simply rip your head off right off idle but will start to fall on its face around 4200 rpm which may not be bad at all for your 18,000 lb car . . When combined with other matching parts, this thing is a stump puller . . I have used it many times in different lower performance apps . . If you never floor your car until it reaches peak rpm, then this is definitely a cam I would consider . . Others might see this and laugh at it but you are not building an 18,000 lb dragster.

COMP XE262H HYD P/N 33-238-4 . . This will have good bottom but less than the one above but it will continue to rev with power around 400 rpm higher it will have more mid range punch than the Crane below . . If you often floor your car until it is about to puke, then this would be far better than the cam above.

Advertised dur 262 270 . . dur @ .050 218 224 . . lift .513 .520 . . lsa 110 . . rpm 1300 - 5500

CRANE 390GT and 428CJ C6OZ-6250-B HYD P/N 34-C6OZ-B

………………………………………dur @ .050 206 220 . . lift .489 .489 . .lsa 116.5 . . ………………………

3. Then I would build a 420 instead of a 406, because the extra cubes will help you achieve ALL your goals, and keep in mind, it costs exactly the same as a 406 and still has a user friendly rod to stroke ratio, plus the piston pin will still be below the oil ring land . . I can not think of a single reason not to build a 420 for your app.

4. Leave the gears you have then and run a small cam . . The extra cubes will increase the acceleration.

5. N/A

6. N/A

7. If you convert to any manual trans, it will accelerate faster even with the same rear gears . . If you use a wide ratio, it will be a hair more sluggish in first than with a wide ratio.

8. This can be achieved a few different ways . . If you use steel headers instead of iron ones, you will hear more noise in the cab . . There are a zillion different mufflers . . below are a few.

DYNOMAX DUAL WALL STAINLESS – these will give a little noise in the cab at steady throttle and will give more when you accelerate . . these have what I would call a moderate noise level but far from obnoxious and I think they will be in your ballpark . . Hear them in the video below at 4:30.

DYNOMAX AND THRUSH SUPER TURBO . . Hear them in the video below at 4:45

FLOWMASTER 3 CHAMBER – this will be louder everywhere but will still not be obnoxious.

ORIGINAL FLOWMASER 10 SINGLE BAFFLE – These are the mufflers from hell and will instantly piss off all your neighbors and set off every car alarm within a 3 mile radius . . I love these things.

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ok, i tried to narrow it down for you in hopes that it would make things a little easier.



RINGS

Call Total Seal and ask what is best for your app.

http://015ef8d.netsolhost.com/ContactUs.aspx



PISTONS

Get the wide skirt if possible and get the 4032 material and .990 pin . . Tell them exactly what rings you will use . . 3 week delivery.

RaceTec & AutoTec Pistons specializes in custom pistons for Sprint Cars, Dirt Modified & Dirt




RODS 6.7 LONG WITH .990 PIN FOR 4.125 CRANK STROKE INTERNAL BALANCED

These will work on either crank below.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/esp-67003d/overview/make/ford



CRANK 4.125 STROKE

Either one of these will work . . The journals on both are the same size.

EAGLE SPCLTY CAST CRANKSHAFT 104284125

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sca-9fe100



VALVES

SS VALVES, FE FORD, CJ W/ 2.090/1.650, HIGH PERFORMANCE 428 - Alex's Parts Sales

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Duke,

Listen to Ross (my427stang). He offered some great advice and has lots of FE experience.

I specialize in Ford engines and do more than a fair share of FE's... Here's some info that may help you out.

1. Scat over Eagle. No execptions. Every time I have read of an aftermarket FE crankshaft breaking, it's been an Eagle. They tend to break right behind the 1/5 rod journal.

2. Go with as much stroke as you can. All of the Scat FE cranks are generally the same price. No reason at all to pass up cubic inches and horsepower.

3. If you're wanting an "off-the-shelf" deal, I would have no qualms about going 4.080" with a 352 block. Ross did point out that a sonic test would be prudent. I agree. I also don't know anyone that charges $250 to do one....????? The .030" 390 stroker kit combos would have a rotating assembly in your hands pretty quickly. If you're wanting to save the cylinders and just bore/hone enough to make the cylinders straight and round, then a custom piston would be a good option. No issues with heating with larger bore sizes. That seems to be one of those internet wives' tales that get passed around with nothing to support them.

I like to use more modern ring pack dimensions (something like a 1.5/1.5/3mm) and sometimes a custom piston will give you better design options.

4. I have a few camshafts that I like to use with my 445 engines and I would be happy to give you a recommendation based on what your budget is and what your goals are.

5. As for cylinder heads, it's really hard to beat an aftermarket aluminum head in performance and value. You can weigh the price of a good Edelbrock/BBM/Survival Motorsports head against the cost of taking a set of factory pieces, pressure testing them, surfacing them, guide work, valve job, cutting them for modern seals, adding valves, etc. You will most likely find that you can get a 270 cfm head for about the price of reworking a set of factory 220 cfm pieces.

You mentioned speaking to Barry on the first page. He will certainly not steer you in the wrong direction and will be a wealth of information for you. I'd be more than happy to help you as well if you need some direction. You can hop on my website and take a look at some of the combos on my dyno results page. Lykins Motorsports, LLC

There are a few guys out there in FE land who are very knowledgeable and have tons of FE experience. There is at least one poster on this thread who just seems to be a good Google searcher...
 
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