[SEKCOBRA]

I know of a 64 p code galaxie that as the story goes had the original engine removed early in its life. What is in it now as far as block identification is this:
C3AE-6015-E with a casting date of 2L8. I believe the date is Dec 8 1962. The story went that it received a service replacement block. Car was built in May of 64. Some people claim that the C3AE-6015-E shows it to be a PI block but I have found some contradicting info on that. All other parts are PI pieces. Did not get a chance to get date codes off heads or anything else. Any opinions??
Thanks

 

[JCAllison]

I know of a 64 p code galaxie that as the story goes had the original engine removed early in its life. What is in it now as far as block identification is this: C3AE-6015-E with a casting date of 2L8. I believe the date is Dec 8 1962.

Hey Mr. S,
To see if it is a P-Code Block, look (if possible) on the Driver's Side Rear Flange where the Bell Housing mates to the Block. A genuine P-Code Block will have a 3/4" tall capital "P" engraved into that skirt.

Also, it will have Solid Valve Lifters and adjustable Rocker Arms.

The story went that it received a service replacement block. Car was built in May of 64. Some people claim that the C3AE-6015-E shows it to be a PI block but I have found some contradicting info on that.

There's all kinds of interesting information floating around about what makes up a P-Code. One is that what determines whether a Block gets the P-Code classification is the quality of the casting, which includes, but is not limited to how central the Cylinders are in relation to the material around the Cylinders.

Another apocryphal feature of a P-Code Block is that the Oil Gallery that supplies lubrication to the Solid Lifters is cast into the Block, not drilled. This supposedly results in a curved Oil Gallery at the back of the Block, whereas a non P-Code Oil Gallery is drilled, and then cross drilled at the back of the Block. This supposedly facilitates a smoother flow of Oil as it goes around a curve instead of around a corner.

All other parts are PI pieces.

"Other parts"?

There are certain "other" parts that are included on the P-Code Engine:

Cast Iron Shorty Headers being one of the most visible.

There are a other features to a '64 P-Code Vehicle that are different from a "regular" '64, such as having a 9/16" Hardened Long Bolt attaching the Lower Front A-Arm to the Frame instead of having the "offset" (Easy Rider) arrangement with a 5/8" ID Bushing at that location. The required 9/16" ID Lower Front Bushings for that location are impossible to find. Ms. American is having to make do with 5/8" OD, and a 9/16" ID inserts inside those Bushings.

Another visible feature indicative of the P-Code is the Wheels. They should be Kelsey Hayes Severe Service Wheels, with the Centers welded to the Rims instead of riveted. And the cutouts being eliptical (cat's eyes) shaped instead of a rounded cornered, curved rectangles.

The Carburetor should be a C4AF-9510-XX (the XX being any number of versions). Have been told what determines the XX is where the vehicle will be used. This has to do with the elevation of the location, and the differences is in the Power Valve, and Jets.

Ms. American 3.14159 has an acceptable, though not original XX of "DG".

Another difference that has been noticed on Ms. American is that she has a five row Radiator, which may or may not have anything to do with her running any cooler, as during the Houston Summers, have had her get overheated sitting in traffic on the Houston Freeways.

Did not get a chance to get date codes off heads or anything else. Any opinions?? Thanks

Post some JPGs if possible.

There are here (if they can be found) some JPGs of Ms. American 3.14159's Casting and Date Codes. If they can be found, will post them for you. They might already be on Photobucket. Will just have to look and see.

Anyway, HTH

JC

 

[BH107]

JC,

Not sure what you are referring to with the lifter oiling. There are no "cast in" oil passages in the block, everything his drilled. A solid lifter block however, is not drilled to give oil to the lifters at all. Same goes for the 390 hipo, 406, and 427 solid lifter blocks. Solid lifters do not require oil pressure, and in fact if factory lifters are used with hydraulic block it can result in very low oil pressure.

 

[JCAllison]

Not sure what you are referring to with the lifter oiling. There are no "cast in" oil passages in the block, everything his drilled.

Hey Mr. BH,
No, no, no! Remember, the "cast in" Oil Galleries are an "apocryphal" feature of the P-Code Engine.

A solid lifter block however, is not drilled to give oil to the lifters at all. Same goes for the 390 hipo, 406, and 427 solid lifter blocks.

Don't know what to tell you about THAT, but Ms. American's P-Code Engine HAS Oil Galleries that supply the Solid Lifters with lubrication. The reason this is known is that when I rebuilt the 3.14's FE back in 1989, we had it all back together and fired it up, and it wouldn't put up more than 30 PSI of Oil Pressure. We pulled it back down and found that the Oil Galleries that supply the Lifters with Oil Pressure had not been plugged. We installed the Plugs, swaged them in, put the Engine back together, started her up, and everything was fine.

Even today, when she starts, she puts up 80 PSI (though she can be revved up cold and the pressure will go up to almost 100 PSI. I don't do that though) till she is up to operating temperature at which time she sits rock solid at 60 PSI unless she is sitting just idling, then the Oil Pressure goes down to between 30 and 40 PSI depending on the ambient temperature.

Solid lifters do not require oil pressure, and in fact if factory lifters are used with hydraulic block it can result in very low oil pressure.

As previously mentioned, Ms. American doesn't suffer from low Oil Pressure, but permit another anecdote about Ms. American's Solid Lifters: When it came time to get the Lifters, the Parts Store didn't have them in stock, but said that I could go pick them up at their parts depot if I didn't want to wait for them to come in. Went there, and when I told the counter man what was needed, he got all "confidential" with me, and told me what he purported to be a "secret". Turns out that a set of sixteen Solid Lifters for a Ford FE costs more than two sets of Solid Lifters for a Nash Rambler Six, and they are EXACTLY the same Lifter. He went back and got a set of Lifters for an FE, and two sets of Lifters for a Rambler. We measured them, and sure enough, they were identical. So I got twenty-four Rambler Lifters for about 2/3rds the price of sixteen FE Lifters. Life is strange.

Take care,

JC

 

[BH107]

Hmm, that is odd. I've never seen a solid lifter engine from Ford that oiled the lifters, but I guess that just reminds me to never say never with a Ford.

As you can see in this pictures below of a 427 solid lifter block, the main oil passage is in the top center of the block (hence topoiler or centeroiler). This feeds everything but the #1 main and cam bearings. At the back of the block, this is connected to the lifter oiling passage by drilling down diagonally from that main passage. Obviously on this solid lifter block it has not been done. In the second picture you can see on the back of the block that the lifter oiling passages were never drilled either.

I have known others to have oil pressure problems when running the OEM style dumbbell lifters in a hydraulic block. Many seal off the passages, or put restrictors in place to limit the amount of oil that goes through.

Now obviously there are still other drilled passages that get plugs. But generally speaking solid lifter blocks are not drilled for lifter oiling.

 

[JCAllison]

Hmm, that is odd. I've never seen a solid lifter engine from Ford that oiled the lifters, but I guess that just reminds me to never say never with a Ford.

Hey Mr. BH,
Hmm, is right! You may have opened a whole NEW can of worms here. Permit me to respond to the rest of your very thoughtful post, and then tell you another part of this conundrum.

As you can see in this pictures below of a 427 solid lifter block, the main oil passage is in the top center of the block (hence topoiler or centeroiler). This feeds everything but the #1 main and cam bearings. At the back of the block, this is connected to the lifter oiling passage by drilling down diagonally from that main passage. Obviously on this solid lifter block it has not been done.

I see that.

In the second picture you can see on the back of the block that the lifter oiling passages were never drilled either.

I see that too.

I have known others to have oil pressure problems when running the OEM style dumbbell lifters in a hydraulic block. Now obviously there are still other drilled passages that get plugs. But generally speaking solid lifter blocks are not drilled for lifter oiling.

Actually, Ms. American didn't get the the Solid Lifters you refer to as the OEM style "dumbell" Lifters. Here's the story on that: The Lexington Machine Shop in Houston did all the machining work on the 3.14's Block. They said that they X-Rayed it, and found the Cylinders EXACTLY centered, and they commented that it could be bored out to be 427 with no problems. They align bored it (.030), and rebuilt the Heads. They obtained the Cam (A Crane Fireball), and "specified" the Lifters that were to be obtained by me. I took that specification to the Auto Parts store, and as previously mentioned, had to go pick up the Lifters. What followed was the getting of the Nash Rambler Lifters. But they were not in any way a "dumbell" shape.

Many seal off the passages, or put restrictors in place to limit the amount of oil that goes through.

We didn't do anything other than install a "cup" shaped plug that got swaged into the Oil Gallery bores after we found that the old Gal's NEWLY rebuilt Engine was only putting up 30 PSI.

Strangely, the first thing that was suspected was that we had gotten a "wimp" Oil Pump, and THAT was the first thing we changed. Still couldn't get sufficient Oil Pressure.

So... (and here is where the "can of worms" comes in): The way we found that it was the Oil Galleries that were not plugged, was that we used a stethescope and listened to the Engine running, and could hear the Oil beating against the Timing Chain Cover! Yes! The Timing Chain Cover!

Permit a bit of an explanation about THAT. We had to take off the Timing Chain Cover to plug the Oil Galleries.

Now, looking at your second JPG, it shows the BACK of the Block with the Oil Gallery Bosses at 10:00 and 2:00 O'Clock. But if I recall correctly, the Oil Gallery on the 3.14's Engine were at 9:00 and 3:00 O'Clock, and were most certainly at the FRONT of the Engine.

Back in 1989, I had only built one other Engine, and that was Lorrie Van Haul's Mighty 225 Slant Six (a sweet little Engine if ever there was one). So I was a novice at that kind of thing. I was being mentored by Howard Williams, the uncle of Ernie Lozano, who owned Ernie's Motors in Houston, and he was letting me do the work in his shop under the watchful eye of uncle Howard who had, when he was younger been a Line Chief for Holman Moody Pit Crews. So being a rank newbie at this sort of thing, I didn't know anything about Oil Galleries, but Howard did. Strangely, when we got the Block from Lexington, Howard actually commented on how nicely it had been done, and how clean the Oil Galleries were! And afterward, he was quite chagrinned to have noticed that, but didn't snap to the fact that they needed to be plugged!

Looking at your JPGs, the thought occurs to me that if the Oil Galleries were drilled to the Front, that one would have to go through the Distributor Bore. I'm sure we would have noticed that.

So this brings me to a question, as I am still a dilettante mechanic. Where are the Oil Galleries on a Solid Lifter Side Oiler FE? Could it be that Ms. American's P-Code Engine is a vaunted Side Oiler?

Makes me want to go "Hmmm" again.

JC

 

[BH107]

Ok, I'll try and hit all of your important points.

As you can see in the picture below, this hydraulic block was drilled to supply oil to the lifters. You can see the plugs in the oil passages at 2:00 and 10:00 of the cam, where all FE engines would supply oil to the lifters. You can also see where the passage was drilled leading from the main oil passage in the center, down to meet the ones coming from the back.

On the front, you can see where the main oil passage was drilled all the way through. This gets a plug at both ends, as you found out. The lifter oil passage on a hydraulic block does get drilled all the way into the distributor opening on the passenger side of the block, and gets a plug there as well. This is probably the most often forgotten plug. If you don't remember it, yours probably wasn't drilled for hydraulic lifters.

And just for good detail, here is a diagram of the oiling passages on a normal hydraulic lifter FE.

As for your side oiler question, there is an extra passage on the side of the block that feeds the main bearings first, and then out to the heads.

 

[JCAllison]

Ok, I'll try and hit all of your important points.
As you can see in the picture below, this hydraulic block was drilled to supply oil to the lifters. You can see the plugs in the oil passages at 2:00 and 10:00 of the cam, where all FE engines would supply oil to the lifters. You can also see where the passage was drilled leading from the main oil passage in the center, down to meet the ones coming from the back.
On the front, you can see where the main oil passage was drilled all the way through. This gets a plug at both ends, as you found out. The lifter oil passage on a hydraulic block does get drilled all the way into the distributor opening on the passenger side of the block, and gets a plug there as well. This is probably the most often forgotten plug. If you don't remember it, yours probably wasn't drilled for hydraulic lifters.

Hey Mr. BH,
The mystery deepens! The Oil Gallery that was not plugged was the one in front of the Distributor. Which means that the Oil Gallery that intrudes into the Distributor Opening (behind the Distributor) MUST have not been plugged either. If it had been, there wouldn't have been any Oil coming out of the Oil Gallery in front of the Distributor.

Somethings to remember though, all this happened back in 1989. I've slept a number of times since then, and MIGHT not be remembering all this as accurately as possible.

The next thing is that when we found that the Oil Gallery wasn't plugged, Howard called Lexington Machine Shop, and they sent a guy out to install the Plugs. And he MAY have installed the plug BEHIND the Distributor and I didn't see him do that. I watched him do the one in FRONT of the Distributor.

The next thing is concerning the Dumbbell Solid Lifters. Here is a JPG that was found on the DIYFORD webpage (a wealth of info!):



Also, here is a JPG of a Hydraulic Lifter:



NOW, here are a couple of JPGs of the Solid Lifters that were taken OUT of Ms. American 3.14159 when the Engine was rebuilt. Notice that they look EXACTLY like a Hydraulic Lifter:



EXCEPT... There's no innards! This is a Solid Lifter, and these JPGs shows my little finger inside of the Lifter to show how deep the inside goes:





And we didn't change the Push Rods. The Nash Rambler Solid Lifters were exactly like the Ford FE Lifters, and they were EXACTLY like the ones shown in these last three JPGs.

This all seems VERY strange to me!

Nonetheless, Ms. American has been motivating quite happily since mile number 167,000 till now almost 300,000 with GREAT Oil Pressure and she runs turbine smooth. Which leads me to this: Today she is scheduled to have her P-Code Engine started for the first time in 2015. Was starting her once a month, but this year, the Liver MDeities decided to start messing with my medication dosages, and I haven't been feeling all that well, though recently everything has started getting better. Am feeling REALLY good today, and thought I'd pay the old Gal some attention. Checked the Battery. It was at 12.07 Volts. Put the charger on her just to top her off. Am going to be putting in maybe three gallons of NEW gas, and running her till she goes empty. Have been doing that to keep any gas in the tank from evaporating leaving residue.

Anyway, want to thank you for taking the time to deal with this issue. Didn't mean to hijack the thread though, and maybe we should start a NEW one if we are going to continue to peruse this rather unusual subject.

Hope this finds YOU doing well.

JC

 

[BH107]

I guess we'll never know unless you ever have the engine out again. The hole in front of the distributor does not get plugged once the one behind it is.

The lifters you have pictured are a shell type lifter, used by Ford's racing teams. Not only are they lighter, the longer pushrods have some benefits as well.

I guess with the car and engine being 50 years old you will probably never know all of its history or the originality of what you have.

 

[JCAllison]

I guess we'll never know unless you ever have the engine out again.

Hey Mr. BH,
Alas, if the Engine ever is out again, it won't be at my hand. Maybe Gary will finally find out the reality.

The hole in front of the distributor does not get plugged once the one behind it is.

!!! But I watched the Lexington guy plug that Gallery. I found out some time after Lexington did the work that they are basically a Chebby shop. I had no concept of any of that at the time. Ernie said that they did excellent work and that they were who he used. So off to Lexington we went.

The lifters you have pictured are a shell type lifter, used by Ford's racing teams. Not only are they lighter, the longer pushrods have some benefits as well.

So what you're saying is that either the Los Angeles Ford Assembly Plant built a somewhat "racey" FE for Ms. American, or maybe my father (or mother) had the Engine hopped up a little?

I guess with the car and engine being 50 years old you will probably never know all of its history or the originality of what you have.

Well, I don't know if you're aware of this, but my father bought Ms. American NEW in March of 1964. She has never been out of the family (such as it is, or was, me being the last surviving Allison, and having no kids). I actually don't think that my parents would have done anything like messing with the Engine.

My mother was the "Little Old Lady from Cherry Valley" (to paraphrase the Beach Boys). Loved to drag race on the streets of Palm Springs, California. Enjoyed the surge of power that revving the Engine and letting out on the Clutch gave.

I was visiting my parents one time in the early '80s and my mother was going out in the 3.14. My father said: "Jim, come here quick. Watch this. " We stood in the kitchen looking out at the street, as my mother backed Ms. American out of the driveway and turned to head South. She stopped in the middle of the road, revved up the Engine, and made as pretty a drag start as you could ever want to see. We could hear the RPMs rise, and then from some distance down the road, we heard a speed shift into second gear. My father looked at me, closed his eyes, and just shook his head!

Just got back in from having started Ms. American for the first time this year. Checked her Oil and Coolant, charged her Battery to 12.78 Volts, put a little more than a gallon of gas in her tank, put a little in her Autolite 4100, along with the barest of spritzes of Valvoline Starter Fluid. Got in, keyed the Starter. She started right up, ran for about three seconds, and then started to die because there was no Gas in the Float Bowls, but just before she died, the Fuel Pump had put enough Gas up, that the Engine caught, and she took right off.

Brought her up to temp. Ran her through the gears three times. Let her idle till she was running turbine smooth. Got out and looked everything over. The old Gal is fine. Never ceases to amaze me. We have such a love affair going. And Lorrie Van Haul makes it a "menage e' trois".

Anyway, "Shell Lifters" huh? What will they think of next.

BTW, have been contemplating going to Pertronix, but with the way that the old Gal started and ran today, may just leave well enough alone. Whaddaya think?

JC

 

[rudi_bester]

I know of a 64 p code galaxie that as the story goes had the original engine removed early in its life. What is in it now as far as block identification is this: C3AE-6015-E with a casting date of 2L8. I believe the date is Dec 8 1962. The story went that it received a service replacement block. Car was built in May of 64. Some people claim that the C3AE-6015-E shows it to be a PI block but I have found some contradicting info on that. All other parts are PI pieces. Did not get a chance to get date codes off heads or anything else. Any opinions?? Thanks

Hi I have a 63 Galaxie 500 with that same cast numbers did you manage to find out what it means.I also found a number C2AE just below the drivers side cylinder head but casted into the block. I checked the stroke on mine what is 3,98” and has c1ae 6069-A head on but don’t know the bore size is so can be a 390 with a 429 crank and rods = to 410ci