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It sure is tight under the dash. Pretty hard to see much of anything. Anyone have any insight on removing the long dash pad on a 66 Galaxie?

Maybe if I took a look in an assembly manual?

I've put the cap on a few years ago and I've never really been as pleased as I should be. I'm thinking I'm going to take it off and spend the $ to have it restored at Just Dashes.

I also understand that Dearborn Classics and/or Ecklers is in the process of a prototype replacement. So that may be Plan B depending on how long it takes before we see them come out.
 

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Very carefully? I don't know what would hold them on there other than the trim pieces around the sides and glue. So would guess you'd have to find a place and use a putty knife or something to work it off there. But i know nothing about '66s, hopefully someone here has a better suggestion.
 

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I'm thinking the pad itself is like the instrument cluster pad which has a metal pan base which screws onto the dash. Just dashes says they want you to ship the old one to them to refurbish. I'm kinda hoping it's a few nuts attached towards the rear, closest to the passengers, and clips towards the windshield.

Very carefully? I don't know what would hold them on there other than the trim pieces around the sides and glue. So would guess you'd have to find a place and use a putty knife or something to work it off there. But i know nothing about '66s, hopefully someone here has a better suggestion.
 

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Sure be easier that way. I saw another thread just a couple lines below yours about a dash pad and it mentioned the metal base or frame. Might check it out see if it helps some or ask them as it might be similar
 

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take out the glove box liner.

there is a row of 5 or 6 nuts that are in a row on the underside of the dash.

as far as the skinny side, mine was just glue.
 

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On your dash pad, you need to remove the glove boxs and ash tray to get to the five screws just above them. Then there are five clips that the metal trim screw into,that need removed. To remove them, take a screw driver and pop the out. You should be able to remove it. On 65 there four more screws to remove around the speaker. I'm the one working with Corvete America/Eckler on the padded dash. I can say that they are pushing hard on getting the pads on the market.
 

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1966 Galaxie LTD, 390-4v
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Hi Everyone. Following the instructions by Randy below so I can replace my center speaker.

I assume the cluster cap must come off first? Is there more to it than the 5-6 screws on the front lip? I pulled mine out, but the thing did not want to budge.

Am I missing something? Hate to force it.
 

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You can remove the speaker without removing the dash. Remove ash tray and maybe a heater duct or whatever else is necessary to get a hand on it from underneath. If it is like my 65 the speaker is held up by a flat steel bar about one inch wide. It has a hinge on one end, push up on the other end and slide it sideways. When it clears the ledge it is sitting on, it will drop down, bringing the speaker with it.

Admittedly you might find your situation not exactly like that but it would be cruelty beyond the pale if Ford made everyone who wanted to replace a speaker remove the dashboard.

Good luck.
 

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I decided to take the more expensive route and go for the repro pad, sold through classiccardashes.com. This is the same pad you would buy if you purchased through Ecklers, etc, made by the same supplier with the tooling.

I have read all I can find here and on the Internet and have gathered bits and pieces about how to take the old 2 piece dash out of my 66 LTD. The smaller instrument pod removal is fairly easy, 5 screws and it pops right off. However, the long pad is definitely alot more work.

I removed all the pillar chrome trim, the front windshield molding strip, the glove box and ash tray to get to the nuts that secure pad at the front and am down to where I am not sure what to do with what is holding it on at the windshield area.

There are 5 clips that serve to also support the metal window trim moulding at the base of the windshield. These clips go right through the dash pad, and have to be removed to get the dash pad out. The underside of the clip is very strong looking metal that looks like if I try to bend it, it probably will snap off, rendering that option not a good one. Also, forcing a screwdriver and popping that retainer clip upwards, with the windshield an inch away, leaves some possibility for damage with the force that would be needed to get it out.

My pictures I have uploaded here are the only ones I have found that show exactly what I am talking about, so this information will help someone else in the future also.

From anyone that has removed a 1966 Galaxie/LTD dash fully, what did you do to get through this part of the project?
 

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The clips are like a lever, by pushing the two parts under the dash together the two parts that are together on the top of the dash will come apart (and vice versa). Yes you are likely to break these fasteners, but they are single use and only made this way to save time on the assembly line.

The fasteners are separate to the little metal bracket the trim screws to.

You can get new matching fasteners (eklers?, dennis carpeneter?), or use something different for re-install. I managed to get all of mine out without breaking them, but I'm pretty sure they will break if i try to re-use them as they split a bit down the middle. I have replaced them with captive nuts in the dash and a bolt to hold the metal bracket in.
 

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Thanks Ralph66 for your timely reply. I know the audience for 66 Galaxie/LTD specific dash pod/long pad removal that has actually done the job(and reads this forum) is fairly small, so appreciate you getting back to me.

I kind of figured looking at it that somehow it would involve removing/breaking those clips off. I doubt I will be able to reuse them also. I like your idea of a captive nut when resecuring the brackets, allows me the option of removal of the brackets, or the next owner say 50 years down the line wants to replace the dash again!

I guess to get to all the clips that need to be removed, I am going to have to remove the instrument cluster to get access to the underside of the clips, or were you able to pry any of them loose from the top of the dash without banging into the windshield? The clips on the passenger side, under the glove box and ashtray are pretty easy to get to from underneath, the two others will be impossible to get to the underside of the clip without removing the gauge cluster. Did you remove any of those clips from the top by chance?

My guess is that the dash pad was installed most likely before the dash and gauge cluster at the factory 53 years ago and they didn't have these worries about damaging the windshield and those clips were fairly easy to get on without the windshield in the way. (and no chance I am pulling the windshield for this job!)

Any other tips that you have to share would be appreciated, and I will add mine to here as a record for future people doing this job, once I get it done.
 

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I had the dash out of the car, which made it much easier to remove everything from the dash. It been a while through so i cant quite remember the sequence.

If you get one of the easy ones out, you should be be able to figure out a way to get the others out, hopefully without removing too much. Note the shop manual just states "unhook the pad from the tabs" and doesn't make any mention of having to remove the cluster
 

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To keep the thread going on my progress, I have gotten the long pad out of the car. It was alot more work than I expected, but because there is not much out there about this removal, figured I would document and give pics of what I am doing with this 1966 LTD long pad to get it out, and I would imagine this applies to a 66 Galaxie also.

These are the steps so far, I have taken, to get the pad out.

Pre steps:

Remove chrome pillar trim, remove metal front windshield interior trim piece that goes the length of the windshield inside. (5 long metal screws, phillips)

1.Remove gauge cluster "Pod", aka, short pad. Remove the 3 phillips screws up near the top underside of the pod and two small phillips screws toward the outside of the pod front, pull forward, should slide off the 3 metal posts that it rests/secures to.

2.Remove the glove box door. (Everything you read says remove the glove box liner, but to get that out without damage, remove the glove box door, better access. You will also need to disconnect the emergency flasher system to get the liner out. Take pics and document how it all goes back together. You will find some most likely disentegrating padding in there, if you have the LTD, remove any crumbling stuff, replace when putting back together if you choose, I will end up some carpet padding to place back in there to act as the sound deadner when I reassemble, no one will see that.

3.Remove the ash tray. Yes, there is a clip on the far back of the ash tray to get it out of the ash tray bracket. Just before the ash tray is fully out, stop, put a long flathead screwdriver in there, press the back of the ash tray clip down and the ash tray will pop out. This is needed to be removed because you have to remove the ash tray bracket next. (and this is the whole pull out part of the ash tray I am talking about here, not just the little cup part of it that you actually would put cig ashes in, remove the entire thing, lighter and all.) Disconnect the lighter wiring, etc, take a pic so you put it back right.

4.Remove the ash tray bracket. 3 phillip head screws, 2 on the sides, one on the top.

5.Remove the front speaker, if equipped. There is a bracket that has one phillips head screws holding the speaker up to the bottom of the metal part of the dash. The other side of the bracket has a metal piece that hooks into a slot down there. Remove the speaker, you will need the room for your hands to work in there. Remove the speaker wires, gently! Check out the crusty condition my original, but still working speaker is in, on the attached pictures.

6.For mine, and probably yours too, for access in later steps, remove the blinker plastic bezels, 3 phillips head screws each side. These are the pieces that are black and have the blinker arrows on them.

7. Remove the front trim bezel that goes around the light switch, vents pulls, rear vaccum door actuator(if equipped), wipers, ignition key, vents, etc. Need to get this out of the way for the next step. To keep track of what screws go where, even if most if not all are the same, I use a piece of cardboard, drawn a not to scale representation of the item, then make dots where each screw comes out, then poke a small screwdriver through that cardboard, and place the screw that corresponds to each hole in the cardboard as I remove them. Makes reassembly, which may be in a month, alot easier when your failing memory is failing again.

8.Before the next step, get a towel, something soft but durable, cover your steering column, at least the part that is closest to the front of the instrument cluster. You are going to remove all the screws, long machine screws from around the bezel. I believe these are 3/8 in screw heads, rachet will work the best for this. They are all the same, they screw into the captive, or cage nuts that are behind the metal of the dash. The idea is to not fully remove the instrument cluster, you just want to be able to pull it forward a bit, so you can get your fingers in there. Rest the slightly pulled forward cluster on the towel you thoughtfully placed on the steering column first. Your paint will thank you for no scrapes later!

9.Start removing the 5 clips that secure the front of the pad to the metal dash. The clips go through the bracket that secures the long metal trim piece you removed in the Pre Steps above, so try not to bend anything too much. Now, this is the hard part. The two clips under the glove box part, you can get a pair of pliers to push the tabs together, and that in turn will push the clip apart on top of the bracket above, and allow easy removal of that bracket. (As Ralph66 mentions below, the clip is like a lever, what you do underneath, does the opposite on the top. However, trying to wedge a straight edge screwdriver from above and open up the clip from the top will be fruitless and possibly damage the windshield if not careful, or the old pad, which if you want to keep it, you may not want either, beyond being impossible, just about)

10. You can remove the two clip/brackets from the glove box access easily, as mentioned above. The other 3, I found the middle bracket/clip has just about zero access to get a pair of pliers on. The 2 others, drivers side, same thing. Even though I pulled the instrument cluster, I just could not get the access from below to get the pliers on the clips from underneath. SOOO... I got brave, and used a LONG sturdy straight edge screwdriver, and GENTLY and with a LITTLE bit of force at time to each side of the bracket, pried up, this is from on top, near the windshield, until I forced the tabs below to give way, and the bracket/clips came loose. It worked, I also made sure to put some part of towel above the bracket, just in case I was too forceful and hit the windshield with it. I was fine, it came out and no damage.

11.Now, you have the 5 clip/brackets out, next time to remove the 3 screws that secure the dash pad face to the front of the metal dash. These are accessed through the glove box/ash tray area. Everything I read says there are 5 of these, not so, only 3. Use a 3/8 closed end wrench, or a smaller 3/8 adjustable, you should be able to fit it in there. The one over the ash tray side is the hardest one to remove, but doable, as long as you have the speaker, etc out of the way. As a side note, I clearly saw 3 holes where this attaches to and removed the 3 corresponding nuts. The replacement pad has 5 posts on it, so unless this is an LTD thing, which I dont think it is, your going to have to Dremel tool off 2 of the front attachement posts that are molded into the new replacement pad. No worry, you are just replicating with the new pad what you had with the old one, and none of that is visible anyway, it just secures the pad from behind in the front.

12.Now time to break the glue seal. Yes, there is a pretty strong adhesive which keeps the pad even more secure. I lifted up at the edge by the glove box first, as my linked Flickr video shows, and you can hear the adhesive break free. Use 2 hands and dont film your progress, it will slow you down! Break the adhesive slowly, use a putty knife or long screwdriver to break it free. Be careful not to poke up too far with anything and hit the windshield or hurt your defroster assembly, which is glorified cardboard up by the windshield on these cars.

13.Marvel at your work, take pictures, see how crusty the area is, admire the glue residue, make mental notes of what your going to have to prep when you come back.

14.Pack up, put out garage heater, shut down lights, close and lock, apply beer to area of mental injury, if any, or apply beer to celebrate.

Next post- prepping and painting replacement pod/long pad.

Link to video removing long pad:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/46808395501/in/dateposted/
 

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Good writeup. The steps should apply to 1965 Galaxie/LTD also. The long pads are very similar. The 1965 speaker is one rectangular opening instead of all the tiny perforations.
Will you document the installation of the reproduction? I am curious about what adhesive and if there are any problems encountered.
 

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Thank you for the input, LARSOFVT. Yes, I am planning on documenting the "putting back together part" of this. I am going to dye the replacement dash in the next week or so. I have all the SEM products for that project already, so I will document and do a few pics of that process. I can already tell you that the repro pad will have to have some of the ABS plastic trimmed, they put a little extra on the front edge near the windshield during the mfg process, which is simply trimmed off. The gauge pod is ready to go, no trimming needed. I will document what to trim when I do that.

But, in preparation for that, here is a video that anyone doing this project wants to see how they make the dash. Classic Car Dashes is who Ecklers, etc, buy their dashes from. Classic Car Dashes is also part of the bigger Corvette America and Mustang America. So, I went right to the source for information on exactly what I purchased. The repro dash is high quality, you are going to pay for the rarity factor, they will actually make it to order, they arent sitting on the shelves like if this was a more common Mustang dash.

The reason you want to know some detail about what material you are working with is that prior to dyeing the dash, you have to do a clean and prep of the dash. As told to me by Classic Car Dashes, the material to make the dash long pad and dash pod is ABS plastic sheets, heated up and vacuum fitted to the mold underneath. Quite a cool process. Watch this video from them, it will show what I am describing very well. Since we have ABS material, you want to use SEM Plastic and Vinyl prep and SEM soap to clean it off. I will attach the process also of what I will be doing here as a guide, from SEM, the company that makes the prep materials. (there are other companies out there that mfg prep material, SEM seems to be the industry standard.

https://www.semproducts.com/manage/html/public/content/techsheets/SEM RAP-1 Training Manual.pdf
 

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Moving the project forward the past couple of weeks, here is where things stand and what I did to get to this point in the projects. Prior steps have been documented in my previous posts below.
Where I last left off, was the long pad and pod were both removed from the car along with all the associated trim/pieces needed to be removed to get enough space for working to get screws and clips out.
Here is what I then did to now get ready for reassembly/dash pad dyeing:

1.Test fit the long pad in the car. I needed to do some trimming here, and the manufacturing process will give you extra ABS that you will need to trim off. I trimmed off extra on the side of the pad that is under the windshield, cut out the area where the defroster vents go and trimmed out a little on the passenger corner by the windshield and notched the driver’s side of the pad by where the blinker area is. (Note, I have attached some pics of most of these things). This is why test fits are good- you want all this done before you dye the pad and pod- no use beating up a nicely done pad with a lot of extra handling during test fit time. Believe me, do multiple test fits, the work spent now on this will help you spend less time down the road. I screwed one of the underneath nuts that hold the long pad in to help in doing the test fit- if you don’t do that, the pad is going to slide all over when you are trying to see how it fits.
Remember, you have the old pad to give you a pretty good idea of what you are trying to create, so use the old pad as a guide, and remember, measure and test fit many times, cut as little as you need to- this is too expensive of a piece to start over with!
2.Test fit the pod. The pod is straightforward, it slips on the 3 metal fingers that poke up from the instrument cluster. You are going to notice there may be a gap between the pod and the pad initially. Do not worry about that right now- just gently push and see where you need to apply some gentle persuasion. Things are going to have to be tweaked a tiny bit to get it to fit just right, but it will line up. One thing I did not do, that I should have done, I did not poke the 3 holes through the ABS on the underside of the pod, as your looking at the instrument cluster. These are the holes that the 3 screws will affix the pod to the 3 metal fingers. I know there is the metal part that these screws will screw into once I do final assembly; I hope they line up correctly!

3. Cutting the square holes for the long pad clips to secure to. All I did was during my test fit, press down really hard with my finger to find the indentation that the square metal stamping would leave. Again, make sure your test fitting and cutting is done with the long pad, so you know this is where the front edge of the pad will be against the windshield. If you press really hard against the square metal stamping under the pad, it will leave an impression on the underside of the pad. That is your point that you will cut the ½ inch by ½ square. Again, you’re recreating the pad you just removed. If your car did not have a pad to begin with, my pictures here give you an idea of what you are trying to do. I used an xtacto knife to cut my holes, and had to trim them up again after doing a test fit again after those cuts. Just trim as little as you need, the goal is to make the hole big enough so you can get the screw into the cage nuts you are going to install in the underside of the dash in the next steps.

4.Cage nut installation. The clips that secured on the L shaped brackets to the front side of the pad are really one use clips. Sure, I have a couple that could probably be used again, but why take the chance. So, I got something that Ralph66 suggested below, cage nuts. Great suggestion. The side you will need is ¼ inch cage nuts. You need 5 of them, but get a few extra, just in case you lose or drop any and cannot find them(I have dropped, but found them- not a fan of metal nuts rattling around or shorting out something on the back side of the instrument cluster). Since the glove box, ashtray, under dash speaker are removed and the instrument cluster is unbolted to slide forward, you have enough room to get the 5 cage nuts into position and clipped in. Here are some tips. Use a pair of pliers to squeeze the cage nut tabs together, so installation will be easier, you will be working with one hand on some of them(and one finger on a couple of them!). Do not squeeze them too tight, as if you do, the tabs will be too close together and not clip correctly into the square stamped hole from underneath. The 2 on the passenger side are accessed from the glove box area, very simple snap in and up into the hole. The middle one is rather tight, under the defroster vent, I went in through the ashtray hole for that one. (a long blade screwdriver will be your friend also with this).

The one on the far left drivers side, there is a hole in the instrument cluster that you can get your hand up and in there, just enough to clip it in. The most challenging one is the one right in the middle of the instrument cluster area. If you have the cluster fully removed, then not so hard, but because I did not want to mess with disconnecting 53 year old wiring, I removed the bolts holding my cluster in and pulled it forward a couple inches, just enough to get my hand in there.
For this cage nut, this was the trick- taping the cage nut to my middle index finger, slicing out the tab area of tape, poking a hole in the top of the nut, to clear the tape away, and then blindly finding the metal tab. One finger method here is what you need, and believe it or not, you get pretty good at it after a few times. (insert joke here, we can go may ways with this one). But, it worked, and I ended up with 5 cage nuts installed.

4.Speaker spacer needs less depth. Under the pad, the original one, you will find a speaker spacer and metal grate. This is used to give the speaker void some support with the depth. Why it is used when the speaker mounts from under the dash, I do not understand, but this is what it is.(maybe this is for better audio quality at some level with the sound going through the metal dash, then the speaker spacer, the metal grate and finally the speaker holes drilled into the new dash long pad), The original pad has a bit more depth for these items to fit into vs the reproduction pad. Issue is that if you use the spacer and metal grate in the new pad space for them, you end up with a rather noticeable bump on the top of the pad when you are doing the test fit. So, to fix that, I used my bench grinder after carefully marking off how much I needed to trim off. When you grind off, remember your grinding at an angle, as the spacer has a bevel to it. Press gently, it is plastic and you don’t want to grind too much off. Do a couple of test fits of the spacer into the spacer hole of the new pad. You will probably end of grinding more off. Put the metal grate in the hole first, then the spacer, they should be fairly flush with the opening in the underside of the pad. Look at the pics I have added to this, in this case, a pic is needed to fully understand what I mean. And, test fit again the pad in the car, with the speaker spacer/metal grate installed into the underside of the new pad. You should have support under the speaker grill now, but not a bulge coming from under the pad, grinding off a bit takes care of this issue.

Now, at this point, I was ready to dye the pod and long pad. I setup my “paint booth”- which was really just a place in my basement that was out of the way. A couple of sawhorses and using the cardboard boxes that the pad came in was the perfect workbench. And, as a bonus, doing this job in the cold Northeast this time of year, the basement was very dry and about 60 degrees, ideal for painting. I also setup some fans that I would use after each coat was done to get a couple of minutes of fresh air into the basement, so I would be alive to continue this series without more brain damage than I currently have!(for this level of a write up, I must be a little nuts)

I used the SEM method of prep and their online instructions for dyeing ABS plastic, which this pad is. Here is the link again: https://www.semproducts.com/manage/html/public/content/techsheets/SEM RAP-1 Training Manual.pdf

I used their instructions under the “Refinishing Flexible and Rigid Plastic”, which ABS qualifies under. I also called SEM to makes sure this was the right way to go, it is.
If you are doing this in a cold winter climate, you’re going to want to get permission to use your bathtub, as you will see shortly. I used my gray 3M scuff pad(a very mild abrasive pad) and SEM Soap, and gave the long pad a nice rub down in my bathtub. If not for the winter and ice outside, I would have rinsed it off outside, but that was not to be. The tub worked just fine. I brought the pad down to the workbench I setup and used a hair dryer to make sure there was no water left on the pad , esp. the speaker holes, after drying. No super heat type of thing, just enough to dry, and as a bonus, you warm the pad up a bit to help with the dye adhesion.

Next, I used the SEM Plastic and Leather prep. I did it per the instructions, wiped one direction to wipe it off. I did it twice, just to make sure. Also, make sure to get the front side of the pad where it angles downward, just to be complete. After this step, I again used the dryer to make sure no lint or anything damp was still in place.

After that, we are ready to apply product. I used the SEM recommended product, Sand Free, one coat, semi damp. Before that coat dried, I applied my first finish coat. Here I deviated from SEM products and went with AccuMatch dye for my color interior. I did as the SEM instructions say, went light with the first finish coat of dye. I waited about 12 minutes between coats. I ended up with 4 coats on the long pad before I was satisfied with the results. Here are some tips: put a small block of wood under the pad on the speaker side, to lift the front lip of the pad off the workbench, to make it easier to spray the dye. I also used a small thin block of wood to lift the instrument cluster part of the long pad up, so I would be able to dye that completely. Also, have a work area that you have 360-degree access to the pad, makes it easier to get to it while spraying from multiple angles.

After that was done, it was onto the Pod. I used the same idea, SEM Soap, Plastic and Leather prep, Sand Free, etc. Also used a small piece of wood to prop it up from behind, just like I did with the long pad.
I think both came out looking pretty decent.

I still need to address before final installation these items- scraping off some glue residue before gluing down the new pad. Blowing some dust out of the instrument cluster while it is apart. Recreating and installing some of the disintegrated sound proofing that was/is behind the glove box/ashtray and behind the instrument cluster.

Until the next installment, be well and keep your bathtub clear!

(to get more info and video, see my Flickr site: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
 

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Good stuff! Long project though. I took a shortcut. Pulled the old 2-piece plastic dash cap and glues and bondo'd them together. Then took it to a professional who double stitched a naugahyde cover for it.
 

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Does the replacement long pad come with the new clips and cage nuts to install?


Also can you tell me what size the screws are that hold the pod cover on?


All my hardware was missing from the previous owner.


Thanks
 

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Does the replacement long pad come with the new clips and cage nuts to install?


Also can you tell me what size the screws are that hold the pod cover on?


All my hardware was missing from the previous owner.


Thanks

The replacement long pad does not come with any hardware, just the long pad, which you will have to trim and punch holes in to accomodate the L shaped bracket/clips that secure it in the front.(5 square holes) In reality, the clips are more to give the front windshield/dash pad trim piece places to screw the trim piece into. Also, there are two foam rubber blocks that are about 3 inches in length that go under the trim piece, probably to reduce vibration.

If you don't have a pad to emulate, the pics I have posted in my previous posts should help you. The cage nuts you want to get are about 1/4 inch, I believe the metric size is 064-105. In this case, metric or standard size wont matter, you just need to get the nuts and screws to secure the L bracket/clip. The holes are stamped in the metal dash nice and square, you get the right size cage nut, you will have no issue.

Also, make sure the screw that you use to secure the cage nut/bracket is no longer than 3/4 inch. You have limited height being so close to the windshield, anything longer your not going to be able to thread into the cage nut.

I also hope you have the trim piece that I mentioned above, it covers the defrost vents and hides the windshield/Long pad junction. I looked for one online, seems hard to come by, at least for a 66. I have also looked for the L Bracket online, and cannot find them. Fabricating them, it could be done, to what level of success depends on the fabricator.

Here are some more pics to assist you. The 3 longer pod screws are about 5/8 inch long, they secure right in front of the speedometer, about half way on that part of the pod. The other two are smaller, about 3/8 inch, they secure the ends of the pod to the dash.

Short answer to your question, no, no hardware at all comes with the pod or the long pad. (sorry, you had to read all that for the answer!)
 

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Here, without the full writeup, is the final product, pretty much, still some fitment work to do on the pod, but pretty close to just about done. Not a project for the "faint of heart"- unless you have real patience to detail and know when to walk away, I would not recommend it. It looks great now, but getting there I would guess I have 30 hours invested in, between all the disassembly, new pad prep and dye and reassembly. Here's are a few pics. (just click on the pics to make them appear correctly and not upside down, they will open up normal orientation- not sure how to make the thumbnails pics of them not be upside down. )

You can also see them and more on my Flickr page- without having to worry about upside down shots!)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
 

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