Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum banner

141 - 160 of 162 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
790 Posts
Better flow on that solid lifter, but it still seems like "not enough".

On the drill loading down.... I hear it in this latest video, but again, it seems like not enough.

The last engine I primed with a drill, my 428 CJ,
when the system primed and loaded the drill,
it damn near broke my wrist from the torque on the drill when pressure came up.
Very sudden and LOTS of load on the drill to drive the pump.
Now, I do have a high volume pump in that engine, but I have had this happen even with stock oil pumps.

Maybe the pressure relief valve in your pump is stuck partially open?
Just enough to give pressure but still leaking.
Or, there is still a massive leak somewhere else.

If the oil pump is new, with cold oil I would expect to see at least 65-70 psi.

My 428 makes 75-80 psi cold. High volume pump, but not high pressure.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
330 Posts
Better flow on that solid lifter, but it still seems like "not enough".

On the drill loading down.... I hear it in this latest video, but again, it seems like not enough.

The last engine I primed with a drill, my 428 CJ,
when the system primed and loaded the drill,
it damn near broke my wrist from the torque on the drill when pressure came up.
Very sudden and LOTS of load on the drill to drive the pump.
Now, I do have a high volume pump in that engine, but I have had this happen even with stock oil pumps.

Maybe the pressure relief valve in your pump is stuck partially open?
Just enough to give pressure but still leaking.
Or, there is still a massive leak somewhere else.

If the oil pump is new, with cold oil I would expect to see at least 65-70 psi.

My 428 makes 75-80 psi cold. High volume pump, but not high pressure.
That's why I had the roller pin on my dist doubled. Had to have a machinist do it. But now it has to pins on the dist gear.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
330 Posts
The one beside it flows very little oil because it's in the up position covering the feed hole. If you rotated the engine to have both lifters in the down position where that cyl was firing, you should get the same amount of oil from both. Just out of curiosity, what oil filter brand are you running?
 

·
Registered
63 convertable
Joined
·
771 Posts
i agree about the drill loading. first time i did it i thought the pump was bad. 1/2 drive drill and hang on
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,013 Posts
I keep thinking that the problem is closer to the pump.

Another simple test is to put a npt nipple (with a hose that is ran into a bucket) in place of the sending unit (or screw a hose connector into the stock extension shaft.) Have all the lifters installed then spin the pump shaft as you have been doing. Oil should squirt out of the hose in short order if there isn't another leak (oil plugs), the pump is not going into bypass (or sealing against the block), or the oil drive shaft is not damaged.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
63 Posts
Discussion Starter #148 (Edited)
I keep thinking that the problem is closer to the pump.

Another simple test is to put a npt nipple (with a hose that is ran into a bucket) in place of the sending unit (or screw a hose connector into the stock extension shaft.) Have all the lifters installed then spin the pump shaft as you have been doing. Oil should squirt out of the hose in short order if there isn't another leak (oil plugs), the pump is not going into bypass (or sealing against the block), or the oil drive shaft is not damaged.
Thanks Dennis.

I did that test in Reply #18 and what I found was, without actually measuring volume/time, for all intents and purposes the same flow I was getting at the top galley crossover plug. Folks commented that the flow was weak and I agree but I used a 5' length of oil pressure tubing (so as to match the test at the top) which in itself adds resistance resulting in reduced flow. I tried to do the math to calculate what the flow rate should be but sometimes math and me is like giving a sharp knife to a baby where-in I'd only hurt myself... this is one of those cases.

Hey, anyone have a 5th grader at home that can solve that equation?

EDIT: I was thinking about if the pump wasn't sealing to the block, still on my mind, as well as the pressure relief bleeding off volume.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
63 Posts
Discussion Starter #149 (Edited)
It could be the appearance of the drill not sounding like it's loading up enough I agree could be a canary in the coal mine. It should be noted however that most of these tests have been done on a fully primed system. When I first started the difference between not primed and primed was stark as others have described. If it makes anyone feel any better if I try to use anything but the lowest gearing on the drill it'll go into current limit and stop. Oh for the days when a good drill would just burn up when overloaded : )

A couple more tests with old solid vs new roller lifters. The following 2 videos show comparisons of old vs new at #4 and #1. All other bores for each test had the rollers installed. It's not that these tests prove anything but just a reference for my own piece of mind. For reference #1 is at TDC for both tests.

It does raise the question however, where is that oil flowing that's not getting through the lifters? If the pump were working as it should, it should probably never see pressure relief at 55 psi as I think the pump is limited at 65 psi... which is what I see at cold idle and everywhere else. Hot idle is 55 psi.

Also of note, maybe, is given the drill is loading down it's hard to tell what rpm it's actually turning. It's rated at 400 rpm no-load which is definitely not what the pump is turning when pushing oil.



And thanks for the rocker oil photos @rickyracer1983, it helps set my expectations. Wish I had a set of rockers with the oil deflectors but I'm limited to what I can use and still use the stock valve covers.
 

·
Registered
63 convertable
Joined
·
771 Posts
when you restrict the flow(small tube) you increase the pressure. so oil should have squirted across the steet
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
330 Posts
Here's a little side by side lifter comparson, the dirty one is Ford factory SBF hyd lifter, the new one is a Crane solid. I have a new set of Crower Hyd somewhere. Look at the oil grooves and the Ford one has 2 ridges. Also look at oil hole location and side that feeds the pushrod/rocker arm. Also look where the oil groove is on the lifter itself.
The pump might be the problem, but I think you would have other issues also if that was the problem. Not saying it isn't, but you'd have to check main/rod bearings first for oil starvation. That's why when I build the bottom end of an engine I make sure it don't come apart and it's documented what's down there.
I've read, but never seen myself, that the oil pump can actually crack or break off under hard usage, especially drag racing.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
330 Posts
Some more food for thought, had enough yet?
A couple of thoughts and a couple of points:
  • Most oil pan manufacturers (not just Stef's) make a 0.750" OD oil pump pickup tube for their Ford 385 Series oil pans. In the sustained upper rpm engine applications a 0.750" OD pickup tube is not only inadequate for an HV pump but it is also inadequate for a std volume pump when the pickup tube is so long as in the rear sump marine applications on the Ford. In short, the pickup tube itself can be a restriction in the upper rpm range. It ought not be so small in diameter; the pump is what dictates the rate of draw and the tube is only a vehicle to get the oil from the pan to the pump; make sure it can feed all the oil that the pump wants.
  • While I do agree that a pickup tube with a diameter larger than 0.750" would help feed the std volume pump in the engine, the particular engine combo would ultimately still suffer oil pressure woes with most any std volume pump when he is on the N20 at high rpm for such a long time. In that regard the HV pump/pickup combo ought to address the last of his oil pressure concerns.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
63 Posts
Discussion Starter #153
Some more food for thought, had enough yet?
A couple of thoughts and a couple of points:
  • Most oil pan manufacturers (not just Stef's) make a 0.750" OD oil pump pickup tube for their Ford 385 Series oil pans. In the sustained upper rpm engine applications a 0.750" OD pickup tube is not only inadequate for an HV pump but it is also inadequate for a std volume pump when the pickup tube is so long as in the rear sump marine applications on the Ford. In short, the pickup tube itself can be a restriction in the upper rpm range. It ought not be so small in diameter; the pump is what dictates the rate of draw and the tube is only a vehicle to get the oil from the pan to the pump; make sure it can feed all the oil that the pump wants.
  • While I do agree that a pickup tube with a diameter larger than 0.750" would help feed the std volume pump in the engine, the particular engine combo would ultimately still suffer oil pressure woes with most any std volume pump when he is on the N20 at high rpm for such a long time. In that regard the HV pump/pickup combo ought to address the last of his oil pressure concerns.
What I have is a Melling M-68 standard volume pump with the stock/original pickup tube/screen. The inlet on the Melling pump is .61" as near as I can tell from product literature. I don't think is an issue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
790 Posts
The drill load should be so much that it requires TWO hands to hold it.
You "could" hold it with one hand, but it should be so much torque that your hand/wrist/arm would get fatigued in short order....

....Assuming that you DON'T have arms like a Gorilla.... or Arnold....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
63 Posts
Discussion Starter #155
The drill load should be so much that it requires TWO hands to hold it.
You "could" hold it with one hand, but it should be so much torque that your hand/wrist/arm would get fatigued in short order....

....Assuming that you DON'T have arms like a Gorilla.... or Arnold....
Nope, don't have the guns but no problem holding the 29 ft/lbs my little 1/2" Bosch drill delivers with one hand. Roughly how much torque should it take to turn the pump on a fully primed 289 in good working order?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
222 Posts
I've been following this thread since it's inception, because it's an early 289 that has been rebuilt (like my Ranchero). After 155 posts, it seems that nothing has been solved, and that a teardown and in-depth assessment of where the problem lies is still not being addressed. I feel for your disappointment & expense, but I don't think there's a magic pill, and that a re-rebuild might be the only solution. It sounds like you have a special car that now needs special attention.

I can tell you that when I adjust my lifters with the engine running using valve covers with cut-off tops, there is oil pumping everywhere, as I found out after trying it without those covers- what a mess. I also feel that modifying a fundamentally great engine design is a mistake, unless you plan to take it racing. A high-zinc oil will allow these old flat tappet engines to last for many years without a cam design change.

I sincerely hope you find a solution.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
330 Posts
I've been following this thread since it's inception, because it's an early 289 that has been rebuilt (like my Ranchero). After 155 posts, it seems that nothing has been solved, and that a teardown and in-depth assessment of where the problem lies is still not being addressed. I feel for your disappointment & expense, but I don't think there's a magic pill, and that a re-rebuild might be the only solution. It sounds like you have a special car that now needs special attention.

I can tell you that when I adjust my lifters with the engine running using valve covers with cut-off tops, there is oil pumping everywhere, as I found out after trying it without those covers- what a mess. I also feel that modifying a fundamentally great engine design is a mistake, unless you plan to take it racing. A high-zinc oil will allow these old flat tappet engines to last for many years without a cam design change.

I sincerely hope you find a solution.
That in the end that is what's going to happen. But put the solid and roller, standing up on a flat surface and look at your oil grooves. Just as I did in post 151. That'll show you how the groove sets when the lifter is on the cam. I still think these are the wrong roller lifters for you block.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
63 Posts
Discussion Starter #158
That in the end tht is what's going to happen. But put the solid and roller, standing up on a flat surface and look at your oil grooves. Just as I did in post 151. That'll show you how the groove sets when the lifter is on the cam. I still think these are the wrong roller lifters for you block.
And that's one of the reasons I posted the diagram in Reply #133, to show the differences between the solids that came out and the rollers that went in, they're totally different including a smaller orifice in the roller. I think if the rollers were flowing the same amount of oil as the old solids I would never have met the generous folks in this forum.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
104 Posts
is it a valid test to leave the crank and cam stationary while running the oil pump? seems like the oil orifices on the lifters are designed to open and close like a two-stroke piston port as they go through the travel. Isn't the lubrication cycle for each lifter controlled by the cam while a constant pressure/flow of oil is available in the galleys? Don't think i ever saw 16 push rods squirting at the ceiling at the same time. probably only 1 or 2 of them are intended to get full flow at any given moment.

The smaller oil orifice in the roller may be part of the issue but also the drawing looked like the orifices sat at different heights between the flat tappets and the rollers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
63 Posts
Discussion Starter #160
is it a valid test to leave the crank and cam stationary while running the oil pump? seems like the oil orifices on the lifters are designed to open and close like a two-stroke piston port as they go through the travel. Isn't the lubrication cycle for each lifter controlled by the cam while a constant pressure/flow of oil is available in the galleys? Don't think i ever saw 16 push rods squirting at the ceiling at the same time. probably only 1 or 2 of them are intended to get full flow at any given moment.

The smaller oil orifice in the roller may be part of the issue but also the drawing looked like the orifices sat at different heights between the flat tappets and the rollers.
The videos don't offer the benefit of seeing the other lifters, each of course in a different state of lift. Each just oozes what would appear to be the same volume of oil whether the engine is assembled and running or not. Because all are affected it's a reasonable thesis to offer that root cause is likely elsewhere.

Speaking of assumptions, I'm assuming that once the pressure is equalized between the lifter reservoir and pressure chamber oil is then metered up through the top to the pushrod (it has nowhere else to go) so in my view as long as there's ample pressure and flow to the lifter bore oil should exit the top of the lifter - barring any other failure that could impact of course.

You are correct in your observations of the diagram. The lifter oil groove is not the same either in size or position in the bore. The roller covers substantially more of the galley than the solid when on the base circle of the cam. In theory this shouldn't make a difference but who knows. It could explain a lifter at the end of the row getting less oil but not so much for the first lifter in line.

Here's a fun video, too bad it doesn't talk about how the rockers get oiled:

 
141 - 160 of 162 Posts
Top