[Nanders]

I want to put together a 408, here is what it is looking like so far:

I have some Dart Pro 1 195cc heads (I bought them originally for a 306 I was planning on revving high a while back). I also have some cast iron Windsor Sr. 200cc heads which have been ported. If I use my dart heads (which I am leaning towards) I am going to recontour the guides and blend the bowls (may or maynot bias the ports a touch). In a perfect world I would shell out the cash for AFR 225s or Dart cnc pro 1s. I want the motor to hit hard, yet do so on a budget (who doesnt).

I have some tunnel rams with two holley 450's that I want to use, after getting the spacer plates to mate it to my windsor.

the car is a 68 cougar with a C4 and a 9" with 4:11's. I would like to keep the stall reasonable for the street, around 3500.

With these things in mind, I would like some input concerning:

1. Crank material - I am leaning towards cast not because I am a mega tightwad, but because I don't plan on spinning it past 6800 or so. I tend to think (I could definately be wrong) that cast cranks arent as bad as some folks believe. Should I splurge for a forged crank? (I will run forged pistons, as I will probably get the urge to spray eventually)

2. Heads - Which ones? like I said, I am leaning towards the Aluminum Darts, but what are your initial thoughts? I am not sure how much compression I can get away with on pump gas, but since this is not a daily driver, I am not afraid of mixing 50/50 race gas or just using 100% race gas. (See, I am not as big of a tightwad as you thought)

3. Cam - I am looking at solid flat-tappets due to the bang for buck factor. Comp makes a single pattern one with 306 advertised and .593 lift with 110 lsa. Is this too much for this car, that kind of stall, with the amount of cubes and relatively small cylinder heads? I honestly don't want to be dissappointed when its done so what do you think?

4. Ignition - I was thinking about my budget and figured I could save some money by only buying 7 spark plugs instead of 8 which would also help my chevy buddy's cutlass keep up with me. Seriously though, I have an MSD 6 AL box, but am wondering if I could get away with a stock electronic distributer from the parts store or if I should spend a couple hundred on an MSD unit. I have doubts that the stock one could keep up around 6800 rpm, but have no experiance with anything above 6000. (we are talking about $75 dollars as opposed to 250ish dollars) *if* indeed you guys feel that the aftermarket distributer is necessary than which one would you recommend?

Feel free to throw in any thoughts or ideas, no matter how crazy or simple, because I may be missing the obvious on some of this stuff, you never know.....

thanx guys,

 

[Nanders]

Oh, and how do you guys feel about my induction? Tunnel rams are not the most practical, but the coolness factor just cant be beat. Unless of course you have a roots blower.

Would I be better off with a good annular boosted double pumper carb on a Vic Jr? Will the dual single feed carbs be hurting me by a significant amout compared to a single carb configuration?

 

[ou812]

I like those dart 195's...with a 2.05 valve in them I've gotten 308 cfm and 210 cfm intake and exhaust. It takes some doing, but they work great. My port ends up at 201cc which IMO blows the afr's away.
Brian

 

[Nanders]

I have heard that the AFR's tend to have optimistic flow numbers. Especially on the exhuast side. Which Afr head do you say they blow away, 185's or the larger un cnc ported units?

I will leave the 2.02's in whichever head I use becasue at this point I cant justify spending money to machine perfectly good heads. But how well do you think the ported Windsor Sr.'s stack up next to the dart 195s ? When I look at the chamber shapes, it seems as though the dart heads look a little better and have more quench, but then again, I could be wrong.

Could I pick your brain on what you do in your porting of the darts? Trouble areas, thin spots, dead spaces etc.

_________________
Thou shalt make it loud while keeping it fast, and thou shalt make plumes of tire-smoke as a burnt offering to the Lord your God, as these things are pleasing to Him.

Nanders 4:11

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Nanders on 4/15/06 2:54pm ]</font>

 

[chipmechanic]

Just a small comment. The shop I bought my AFR 225's at pulled them out of the box, pulled the springs off one chamber, bolted a 2 inch pipe up to the exhaust since I am using 2 inch primaries and they used a 4.125" deck plate since thats what I am using. The heads flowed a few cfm OVER what AFR claimed . I dont know about the other AFR's but the 225's are the real deal.

 

[ou812]

Well all the AFR heads I've tested flowed within 1% of their advertised numbers...so there's no doubt their numbers are true. What I was saying is compared to their 205 race ported head, the Dart when ported is a little better at 4cc smaller, 2.05 vs. afr 2.08 valve and @ .600 lift my port goes 308 and afr is usually around 305. Not huge differences but enough worth mentioning.
On exhaust side, with a pipe the dart will go 220 @ .600. This is conservative porting, not hogging the port or tubing the pushrod hole.
You can get more from both heads, but the ports get larger so you end up juggling port size vs. flow for the application intended.
The only thing I will say about the Dart head, if your going to port yourself, it's easy to make a good head BAD! Port shaping is what's needed, and without a flowbench and pitot tube you can screw the head up really fast. You'd be better off running it out of the box. The port walls aren't as thick as you think in those, they use dedicated castings when they do their cnc stuff so they can get the port SHAPE that works best with the runner cross section and valve size.
Brian

 

[mstngjoe]

On 2006-04-14 23:42, ou812 wrote:
I like those dart 195's...with a 2.05 valve in them I've gotten 308 cfm and 210 cfm intake and exhaust. It takes some doing, but they work great. My port ends up at 201cc which IMO blows the afr's away.
Brian

What's the cost on the Dart by the time you're done with it?

 

[ou812]

I dont sell Dart heads, so not sure about the cost of them complete but the porting and seat work, plus surface cutting them to desired chamber size is $1000.00. Probably around 300 dollars more than the afr's. The porting alone is 800 bucks, plus the seat cuts, chamber cuts, valve cutting, and then cutting the decks up to .050 per head.
I did a set on a 393 with a solid roller cam and 12:1 compression and they work really well, very torquey with power up to 6800rpm with only [email protected] .050 cam and .630 lift.
Where AFR really sells their heads is that they are cnc'd and look very nice...and yeah they do work good and are a good casting...but when you do detail work to them, they will usually gain another 15cfm on intake and 10-12 on exhaust.
Good heads, but for cnc'd heads the TEA heads are primo!!

Brian

 

[mstngjoe]

The Dart 195cc heads are $1366 assembled from Summit.

So that would put the price at around $2350 not counting shipping here and there.

 

[rcm600]

Just bought a set from amp performance on ebay for $1200 with 195LB. solid roller springs. Ad performance also sells them for $1300. Less if they have hydraulic springs.

 

[Nanders]

I got mine for 1000 from t and l engines out of North Carolina.

 

[Nanders]

So, what do you guys think of the cam I was looking at. Solid flat-tappet with 260* @ .050. Where will the power band peter out with that cam with a 408 cube motor? Would a 3500 stall be sufficient?

 

[forthman]

I run a cam close to that grind and like it. Have run both flat tappit solid and roller solid. Go roller you will not regret it.
The heads will do fine. You will get to about 6500 with them. Really no need to turn any higher. I have a 3500 stall. Have run it on a 393 and the current 351w is ok for the street maybe a tad loose. I am toying with the idea to trying a 2400 stall. The torque i have is big time and right off idle so thinking might be easier to get traction with a lower stall.
I can flat fry the Mickey Thompson drag radials.

_________________
1966 Stang Coupe Org. 6 cyl. 351w,Sealed Power Hypers, ARP bolts,Total Seal rings,Eagle H-beams rods,Balanced,Hedman long tubes, TMD 2.05/1.60 Vic Jr Knockoffs, 1.6 Stainless steel Roller Rockers, Victor Jr intake, Holley 750 DP, Ed Nix Custom .600/.600 254/258 @.050 Solid Cam, Crane solid roller lifters,Richmond 4.11, Strange mini spool, Modified C4, 3500 stall, ******* Transbrake, B&M Hammer shifter, Shelby lowered, Pro-Comp 6Al system. Mickey Thompson 275/50 Et Street Drag radials.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Forthman on 4/23/06 4:05am ]</font>

 

[rcm600]

I received my new Dart Pro 1s with grinder marks in one combustion chamber. They must be from casting flash being removed.TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE. I sent pictures to them to see about another head. I knew I should have bought AFRs.

 

[Nanders]

ouch that sucks.