[steharz]

a friend of mine has been having a 351c rebuilt, we took the engine over to the guy that rebuilt my 351 and he pulled it apart, inspected it, bored and decked the block and was meant to have it finished yesterday when we went to pick it up. But theres a problem with the block. He had the main bearing caps sitting on the block where they are suppose to go except they were lined up in this order 1-2-4-3-5, the number four cap has got the groves in the side of it for the thrust bearing but the slots for the bearing tangs dont line up and the builder is telling us this is how it must have been done at the factory.

Problem is the bearings wont fit in those caps without cutting the tangs off the bearing{no-way}.Where we are at now is two new main caps for 3 and 4 are needed and the block is going to have to be align bored and honed [quoted up to $600 for this]. Needless to say my mate thats getting this engine built isnt happy, this was the third engine we have taken over, apparently the other two blocks werent rebuildable.

But i think this problem should have been picked up before final assembly, wouldnt all the main caps be installed during mock-up?Anyway i wanted to ask if anyone has ever found the main bearing caps installed in the wrong order like i described when they've pulled an engine apart?

The only way i can see this engine could be put together at the factory like this if they made this screw up with the caps is the tangs on the number 3 and 4 bearings would have to be cut off and the bearing could move around in the cap, would the engine even run like this?

Im interested in seeing if anyone else has come across this problem or one similar.

Thanks.

_________________

81 aussie ltd-351w,rpm heads,performer rpm airgap intake,10.3 com,angus 1.6 rollers ,1 5/8 long tubes,750 edelbrock,comp xe274h,c4, 2800 stall

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: steharz on 4/28/06 10:00am ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: steharz on 4/28/06 10:02am ]</font>

 

[Motorhead]

I smell BS... I doubt the engine would have run right from the factory like that, and I further doubt that the factory would have botched it together like that to begin with.

 

[FEandGoingBroke]

Sounds like the machinist fugged up there, and Line Boring the crank slots is only necessary if they are not true to begin with. Typical machine shop line bore for the crank should not cost more than $250 bucks even if you were in Antarctica..... That fella is screwing with you.
The block has already been trued and the holes have been punched. If this is not a daily Race car, you shouldn't fear the factory's original cut on the bearing placement, unless there is an issue with it to begin with. If the motor was not eating cranks and eating bearings it's true enough to go with as it sits.

Describe to me the problem with placing the bearing cap's back in their proper order... Each bearing cap should have the exact same dimensions where the bearings rest when torqued down, shouldn't they? Therefore why do you not place #4 back where it belongs?

FE
P.S. Break up your sentences with an "enter" key now and then, it's hard to dissimilate all that info when it's allrantogetherlikethatwithoutvisibleparahraphspaces...

 

[dacofa]

I smell a rat. Anyone who knows what they're doing always checks the cap and rod numbers before taking them off. This way you know what matches to what. I've seen rod numbers all messed up but that worked when it ran and they match to themselves. I think the machinist just likes to screw with you. @ bad blocks already?????? I'd have them checked somewhere else. $600 align bore. You could ship it to the US and still save money.

 

[gorgan1314]

Bullshit.

 

[67Coug]

Any chance the original bearings are still around? Did your buddy tear down the engine (and throw the old inserts under his bench)? If the machinist tore it down, does he have a scrap pile he throws everything in and hauls out later? Maybe they're still in his pile. Looking at the old inserts would expalin if the factory goofed up or not. You would have a flattened tang on the thrust bearing if they did. If the #4 cap is the only one cut for the thrust flange, it looks like the factory did it.

 

[forthman]

Is bovine scatollagy!.
Do as Fe said put them back in proper order installthe bearings and give it a spin my hand should be free and easy

 

[steharz]

thanks for the replys ,my mate and i have had afew TIME problems with this guy on this build,but the engine he built me has been all-good ,so we went ahead and got him to put together a long rod 351c,
which is looking like a big mistake.

We are going over on monday to get some pics of whats going on,ill post them on monday so i can get your opinions as to what the hell bs this guy is trying to feed us.

FE. we dont know how this motor ran as it was scored not running,
number 4 cap cant be put back on the number 4 because its machined for the number three thrust bearing.

The problem seems to be the tangs on the bearing that go in these caps dont line up.

But i will get pics of this on monday,
ive never seen anything like it, the bearings wont fit in the caps if they are used with the number 3 cap on 4,
and number 4 cap on 3 because its cut on the sides of the bearing cap for the thrust bearing .
weird stuff i know, thats why ill get those pics,
its a 45minute drive so we cant get them until monday.
the reason we were told the caps cant go back to there proper place number wise, is the number 3 bearing cap isn't cut for the thrust bearing and we were told the block would have to be align bored if the caps are changed at this stage.



_________________

81 aussie ltd-351w,rpm heads,performer rpm airgap intake,10.3 com,angus 1.6 rollers ,1 5/8 long tubes,750 edelbrock,comp xe274h,c4, 2800 stall

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: steharz on 4/28/06 1:25pm ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: steharz on 4/28/06 1:27pm ]</font>

 

[FEandGoingBroke]

I doubt that. The lign bore make a true or near to true center from balancer to flex plate... I know for a FACT that the BOLTS do NOT center the caps, the block is machined straight down and the grooves (to the left and right of the cap) hold true center, and are in the same position. I will talk to my machinist tomorrow about this issue.


Look guy's... If #4 is now in the #3 position and #3 is machined for the thrust bearing, and the #4 "Original" cap was machined at the factory to be used with the thrust bearing, then there is NO PROBLEM... Swap them back. Is the #4 from the factory the cap that used the thrust bearing originally? If YES, then put it where it belongs... I will try to post pics tomorrow as well to explain myself.

FE

 

[steharz]

i can see what youre saying FE.swap them back and machine the number 3 cap to accept the thrust bearing.
that was my first thought on fixing this but weve got this guy thats doing the engine telling us it will have to be align bored if we do that.

 

[Blue Fastback]

I agree this sounds like a bunch of crap. Line bore and hone should not cost $600. The bolt holes do not center the cap to the block, the registers do on the block itself. Lets see some pic's. I dont understand what you mean by the tangs dont line up?

 

[coupe3w]

Isn't the block also machined from the factory for the thrust bearing upper half? Is the BLOCK SIDE machined in the #3 or #4 position for the thrust bearing? That would tell you where the thrust bearing goes and if the factory screwed up (which I doubt) since cleveland blocks were machined by cnc machines.

 

[FEandGoingBroke]

Good Point Coupe!! The BLOCK is MACHINED at the factory to receive the thrust bearing! Which means that the MAINCAP ia machined at the factory to receive the thrust bearing....

When you get to the engine take a pic of the cap's in the wrong places and in the correct places.

IF the CAPS are ORIGINAL, the Machining is Already factory done on the correct cap. If this guy was machining the #3 maincap to hold the thrust washer then he is probably an idiot... The #4 should already have the machining marks from the factory.

I'm doing some investigating today......

 

[FEandGoingBroke]

gota wait till Monday.... Machinist is out sick today, although there is someone near I can go to... check this post later...


FE

 

[FEandGoingBroke]

OK, I just got back from inspecting a nearby cleveland block.

Like I said before. If you Place the #3 cap back in the original place for it it will have the exact same design and bore alignment as the #4 would in it's place.
Although the #4 NOW apparently has the machining for the thrust bearing, it can still be used as the #4 cap as was it's original intentions from the factory. If you PM me I will e-mail you some pictures and give descriptions to assist with my reasoning...

So, as I understand from your post the Block was Line bored with the #4 cap in the wrong position. That is NOT a factor if the #4 cap has the machining necessary to allow the thrust bearing.

Furthermore, the #3 Cap, having the original factory thrust bearing machining on it from the beginning, and the Boring being done with it in the #4 cap's position will have NO effect on the engine's performance nor longevity.

Fact's to chew on.

The Bearing caps are Centered between left bank and the right bank by the original machining of the manufacturer of the block (FOMOCO).

The Thrust bearing regardless of it's placement of the block helps keep the crank centered Fore and Aft in it's placement in the engine.

The Main Cap Bolts keep the Bearing caps centered to the block in a Fore and Aft position only. The Left and Right Bank centering comes from the original ridges cut into the block at the factory that the caps lay in just as mentioned earlier.

Overview:

When you arrive at the shop, place the #3 cap (the one with the original machining for the thrust washer) in the #3 position and tap it down flat to the mating surface (without the bearing in it). Run your fingernail along the portions where the cap meets the block, if you feel a ridge (and you wont) then re-machining is necessary. Do the Same with the #4 cap in the #4 slot (Ensuring that the cap is facing the proper direction). If you feel no ridge (which you most likely won't). Then you may proceed with the engine assembly with the caps in their proper positioning, 1-2-3-4-5, and have no fears of that bearing spinning because you can use the correct bearing in the correct hole.

Please let me know if your Machinist objects to this, The line bore is done with the caps set into the block and will hold true wven if the caps were placed in the block in the order of 4-2-1-5-3.... If he line bored it properly it will stay true.

FE

 

[cmf60]

I think it "look for new machinist" time as well. Even with the crazy prices we pay for machining down here, $600 is around double what I have paid in the past for line honing.

 

[FEandGoingBroke]

line honing has never run me more than $150 bucks!

 

[Sonny]

I have paid trade 250 to 400 NZ dollers for line honing 4 main bearing 6 and V8 blocks.The last balance I had done to a Windsor 8 years ago was $400 after shopping around.
I can't imagine Ford getting this so wrong but anything is possible?
I smell a rat having been burnt by so called V8 engine builders in NZ.The problem is we don't have the amount of places to chose from that you guys do even with the bad shops you US guys find.
I don't agree you can send a block to the US and back with work done too-Trust me, the post prices on some parts make it a bitch.
Seems its cheap for joe public in the US to sent something to NZ but once a car part place etc gets involved the rates go up I found.Summit have an automatic message they send me on some items as often the part if under $100 is not worth sending here.Of couse that works for sellers here to mark up prices they ship over in a big container.I even found a set of screw in studs was $30 cheaper to get from a Australian (ARPbrand) speed shop than a shop in a nearby town, including freight? It just doen't work out,some joe is getting rich.
Anyway I hope it works out.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Andreas on 4/29/06 9:18am ]</font>

 

[FEandGoingBroke]

I sent you the photo's a minute ago!

They should 'splain' everything.....

FE

 

[steharz]

thanks for the pic FE,from what i can remember from the other day when we saw the engine,the problem with the number 4 cap being on the number 3 caps position was the thrust bearing wouldnt fit in the number 4 cap because the tang that holds the bearing in place was in the wrong position.
the number 4 cap is machined on the sides to accept the thrust bearing but the tangs dont line up.
on monday we are going to try changing the caps to where they should be,i.e 12345.
all that should have to be done is the sides of number 3 cap will need to be machined to accept the thrust bearing.
this is presuming everything lines up as far as the caps go.
ill get some pics of whats going on monday and post them,
this is really weird and needs to be seen in some pics

_________________

81 aussie ltd-351w,rpm heads,performer rpm airgap intake,10.3 com,angus 1.6 rollers ,1 5/8 long tubes,750 edelbrock,comp xe274h,c4, 2800 stall

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: steharz on 4/29/06 1:43pm ]</font>