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Discussion Starter #1
In case you have been living off planet or in a cave somewhere;

Hillary Clinton, as secretary of state, has been engaged in the UN talks on the Small Arms Trade Treaty or ATT. Back in July, citing problems with the wording, Obama said we, the US, were backing away from the table. That was obviously just a ploy to not stirr up any controversy before the election.

As if by magic, the very next day after Obama was re-elected the treaty was called up again in the UN and we are back at the table. I don't believe that the text of the treaty has been changed in any way. It is obvious that Obama or perhaps Clinton will sign the treaty as our nation's official representative of state.

Oh but you say, the Senate has to ratify it for it to become law. NOT TRUE. As soon as an official representing the USA signs the treaty it immediately becomes the law of the land. The Senate then has to vote it down or fail to pass it by a majority vote for it to not be law.

This little fact is imbedded in another treaty our country agreed to all the way back in the 70's called "The Vienna Conventions on the Law of Treaties". Yes we ratified that thing. Do a search on it if you want to read what it says.

As soon as the UN ATT is signed it can then be implemented by the criminal that runs the Department of Justice and the gang of thugs that are in the ATF.

The only remaining questions then are;
will the Senate actually vote it down or not pass it
how long will it take them to get around to it once it is signed

Some senators have already written to the President and requested the executive branch of the government to "opt out" of this entire process in the UN but that apparently has fallen on deaf ears.
 

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The United Nations is polishing up a global Arms Trade Treaty (ATT) this month in a New York convention that would create a global registry of private ownership of firearms. This treaty — which would also mandate creation of a national collection agency for those guns and is contrary to the U.S. Constitution's Second Amendment — has the long-standing and enthusiastic backing of the Obama State Department, headed by Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.
______________________________________________________________________



Copy and paste of first paragraph of an article that can be read HERE
 

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I will have to do some digging around to see if i can find it in its entirety and post the link... Biased sites doesnt really talk about it in whole, so will do some digging.... Same thing goes for ALL media, they lean one way or the other so only bring up the parts that are relevant to THEIR sides case/cause....
 

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Who could expect less from the Bo-Jangles gang? The 2nd amend. exists so that the citizenry can protect them selves FROM the Govt. ANYTHING that frightens criminal politicians must be preserved. Who knows what the Senate would do? Its after the elections ya' know. John--Las Vegas
 

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Who could expect less from the Bo-Jangles gang? The 2nd amend. exists so that the citizenry can protect them selves FROM the Govt. ANYTHING that frightens criminal politicians must be preserved. Who knows what the Senate would do? Its after the elections ya' know. John--Las Vegas

And how! Global registration???? How the hell can that pass as a law by one Idiot signing into the treaty?

This schitt can't be allowed to go on! WTF can I do to get the word out?

I Can and will own and bear arms against any foe foreign or DOMESTIC....

Nothing will take that liberty from me. :)
 

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I wouldn't put anything past the current administration, but... Did a little reading, think this is at least officially for international trading, not domestic...but as whacked out as our government is becoming, wouldn't doubt it might become a stepping stone for more and more regulation...
having internationally accessible registration seems kinda scary, IMHO it's NOBODY'S damn business what someone might have inside their homes to protect it from intruders (or politicians). UN had friggin Iran on the treaty commission...wtf? As I understand the thing, kinda sounds like you can keep your guns, but our government in their concern for everyone's welfare will let the world know what's in a closet at 123 any street...

This politically correct liberal BS is eroding not just the rights of US citizens, but also common sense. When I left for Japan in 03, we connected in Detroit, they had the first person in line pick a number, and she said 7, they pulled every 7th person for security scans...they patted down a little old lady who was in front of 3 young mid eastern looking men...again WTF? If they were looking for fat balding white guys, I would not be offended AT ALL if they pulled me out of line...it's not racial profiling, IT'S COMMON SENSE- something totally lacking in our inept government.

Legal guns don't kill people very often, illegal guns in the hands of murderers do. Throughout the Middle East, there are radicals with automatic weapons everywhere blowing the crap out of anything they can...creating international registration lists aren't going to change the fact MOST of the weapons causing the carnage were supplied by folks like us against Russia, and Russia against us... Fast and furious? Gee that all but disappeared out of the news didn't it- but they are still pursuing cracking down on legal/ constitutionally guaranteed rights under the guise "to protect everyone". Riiiiiiggghhtt...
 

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I worry long term about cars too...there's a thing going on in Ohio to regulate salvaging automobiles, has a lot of the salvage yards worried - has me worried because how it's worded, any disassembled vehicle might be classified as junk, and subject to be towed away...used to be in Ohio if indoors/ behind a fence/ undercover it was ok...by the wording I saw, they could haul away my 69 mustang as its incomplete- as it has been, sitting covered inside a garage for 28 yrs now... Or my unlicensed 09 mustang with 4 miles on it sitting covered inside the same garage the last 4 yrs..hey it's not registered(never has been), must be junk too...

With anything concerning government, the more they try to fix things, the worse mess they make of it. Don't remember whose quote, think maybe Jefferson" the best government is the least government" or something like that...freedom and government sit on opposite sides of the scales anymore, and government is getting fatter every day.
 

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Loose the second amendment? There is no provision in the constitution for loosing amendments. You will have to speak plainer than that, friend.
 

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Oh but you say, the Senate has to ratify it for it to become law. NOT TRUE. As soon as an official representing the USA signs the treaty it immediately becomes the law of the land. The Senate then has to vote it down or fail to pass it by a majority vote for it to not be law.

This little fact is imbedded in another treaty our country agreed to all the way back in the 70's called "The Vienna Conventions on the Law of Treaties". Yes we ratified that thing. Do a search on it if you want to read what it says.
If this does infringe directly on the 2nd Amendment, a foreign treaty cannot just displace it. It is a Constitutional right. So, say if it is passed, a suit is brought before a court to determine its legality. If the court rules that it violates the 2nd Amendment, if the US wishes to maintain it as law, then it must go through the Amendment process. This though is scary since if it makes the automatic approval of foreign law as the law of the land, then it will also make Senate ratification of treaties null and void. But, given how some of the courts rule, this is troublesome though the Amendment process will stop this cold if it does go that way. But, I'd worry more about legalized Marijuana and how it basically makes the Supremacy Clause invalid.

However, I wouldn't worry about the Vienna Convention. Read Article 14, which basically states that a state does not have to be bound by the treaty unless ratified, which can either be done by including it in the text of the treaty, or with the knowing intention of a ratification process following signatures. As all know we require Senate confirmation, ratification is the only way we would be bound by the treaty. So if signed and not ratified, it's not the law of the land, similar to how the Senate didn't ratify the provisions for us joining the League of Nations.

http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/1_1_1969.pdf
 

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During the same period with a stroke of a pen (executive order) he encompassed state and local law enforcement within bowls of Home Land Security in the guise of fighting terrorism, which means Martial Law is just a breath away.
 

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Bad things are happening while we sleep that many are not privy to until we awake and find it's to late. Like that first little sniffle that grows into a deadly case of the flu.
It only takes one SC appointee to change our world as we know it and with our Senate leaning so far to the left, who knows.
 

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This is the "real deal" from the current "administration".....SCARY AS HELL and just the beginning folks!!

Obama's Gun Ban List Is Out.......


Alan Korwin - Author Gun Laws Of America GunLaws.com


Here it is, folks, and it is bad news. The framework for legislation is always laid, and the Democrats have the votes to pass anything they want to impose upon us. They really do not believe you need anything more than a brick to defend your home and family. Look at the list and see how many you own. Remember, it is registration, then confiscation. It has happened in the UK, in Australia, in Europe, in China, and what they have found is that for some reason the criminals do not turn in their weapons, but will know that you did.

Remember, the first step in establishing a dictatorship is to disarm the citizens.

Gun-ban list proposed. Slipping below the radar (or under the short-term memory cap), the Democrats have already leaked a gun-ban list, even under the Bush administration when they knew full well it had no chance of passage (HR 1022, 110th Congress). It serves as a framework for the new list the Brady's plan to introduce shortly. I have an outline of the Brady's current plans and targets of opportunity. It's horrific. They're going after the courts, regulatory agencies, firearms dealers and statutes in an all out effort to restrict we the people. They've made little mention of criminals. Now more than ever, attention to the entire Bill of Rights is critical. Gun bans will impact our freedoms under search and seizure, due process, confiscated property, states' rights, free speech, right to assemble and more, in addition to the Second Amendment. The Democrats current gun-ban-list proposal (final list will be worse):

Rifles (or copies or duplicates):
M1 Carbine,
Sturm Ruger Mini-14,
AR-15,
Bushmaster XM15,
Armalite M15,
AR-10,
Thompson 1927,
Thompson M1;
AK,
AKM,
AKS,
AK-47,
AK-74,
ARM,
MAK90,
NHM 90,
NHM 91,
SA 85,
SA 93,
VEPR;
Olympic Arms PCR;
AR70,
Calico Liberty ,
Dragunov SVD Sniper Rifle or Dragunov SVU, Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, or FNC, Hi-Point20Carbine, HK-91, HK-93, HK-94, HK-PSG-1, Thompson 1927 Commando, Kel-Tec Sub Rifle; Saiga, SAR-8, SAR-4800, SKS with detachable magazine, SLG 95, SLR 95 or 96, Steyr AU, Tavor, Uzi, Galil and Uzi Sporter, Galil Sporter, or Galil Sniper Rifle ( Galatz ).
Pistols (or copies or duplicates):
Calico M-110,
MAC-10,
MAC-11, or MPA3,
Olympic Arms OA,
TEC-9,
TEC-DC9,
TEC-22 Scorpion, or AB-10,
Uzi.
Shotguns (or copies or duplicates):
Armscor 30 BG,
SPAS 12 or LAW 12,
Striker 12,
Streetsweeper. Catch-all category (for anything missed or new designs):
A semiautomatic rifle that accepts a detachable magazine and has:
(i) a folding or telescoping stock,
(ii) a threaded barrel,
(iii) a pistol grip (which includes ANYTHING that can serve as a grip, see below),
(iv) a forward grip; or a barrel shroud.
Any semiautomatic rifle with a fixed magazine that can accept more than
10 rounds (except tubular magazine .22 rim fire rifles).
A semiautomatic pistol that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine, and has:
(i) a second pistol grip,
(ii) a threaded barrel,
(iii) a barrel shroud or
(iv) can accept a detachable magazine outside of the pistol grip, and
(v) a semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that can accept more than 10 rounds.
A semiautomatic shotgun with:
(i) a folding or telescoping stock,
(ii) a pistol grip (see definition below),
(iii) the ability to accept a detachable magazine or a fixed magazine capacity of more than 5 rounds, and
(iv) a shotgun with a revolving cylinder.
Frames or receivers for the above are included, along with conversion kits.
Attorney General gets carte blanche to ban guns at will: Under the proposal, the U.S. Attorney General can add any "semiautomatic rifle or shotgun originally designed for military or law enforcement use, or a firearm based on the design of such a firearm, that is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, as determined by the Attorney General."


Note that Obama's pick for this office, Eric Holder, wrote a brief in the Heller case supporting the position that you have no right to have a working firearm in your own home. In making this determination, the bill says, "there shall be a rebuttable presumption that a firearm procured for use by the United States military or any law enforcement agency is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, and shall not be determined to be particularly suitable for sporting purposes solely because the firearm is suitable for use in a sporting event." In plain English this means that ANY firearm ever obtained by federal officers or the military is not suitable for the public.


The last part is particularly clever, stating that a firearm doesn't have a sporting purpose just because it can be used for sporting purpose -- is that devious or what? And of course, "sporting purpose" is a rights infringement with no constitutional or historical support whatsoever, invented by domestic enemies of the right to keep and bear arms to further their cause of disarming the innocent.

Respectfully submitted, Alan Korwin, Author Gun Laws of America Gun Laws of America

Forward or send to every gun owner you know...
Watch This, If You Want More Proof:
YouTube - CNN- Obama To BAN Guns SPREAD THIS FOLKS, PLZ!
CNN- Obama To BAN Guns SPREAD THIS FOLKS, PLZ! - YouTube

A partial list of gun rights groups:

Gun Owners of America
Gun Owners of America - Gun Owners Of America

Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership

FREEDOM=GUNS
FREEDOM=GUNS

National Rifle Association
NRA

Second Amendment Committee
Second Amendment Committee :: Welcome

Second Amendment Foundation
Second Amendment Foundation Online

Second Amendment Sisters
Second Amendment Sisters - Self-Defense is a Basic Human Right

Women Against Gun Control
- Women Against Gun Control

Victoria Baer

4320 Deerwood Lake Pkwy #101-222
Jacksonville, FL 32216
904.982.1734 PH
904.996.1510 FAX
http://us.mc1849.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
The Baer Edge | Jacksonville Advertising Agency
Give your business the Competive Edge…
When the defense of liberty becomes a crime, tyranny is already in force. At that point, failure to defend liberty makes slavery a certainty.
 

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I hope they confiscate someones guns.



This is the "real deal" from the current "administration".....SCARY AS HELL and just the beginning folks!!

Obama's Gun Ban List Is Out.......


Alan Korwin - Author Gun Laws Of America GunLaws.com


Here it is, folks, and it is bad news. The framework for legislation is always laid, and the Democrats have the votes to pass anything they want to impose upon us. They really do not believe you need anything more than a brick to defend your home and family. Look at the list and see how many you own. Remember, it is registration, then confiscation. It has happened in the UK, in Australia, in Europe, in China, and what they have found is that for some reason the criminals do not turn in their weapons, but will know that you did.

Remember, the first step in establishing a dictatorship is to disarm the citizens.

Gun-ban list proposed. Slipping below the radar (or under the short-term memory cap), the Democrats have already leaked a gun-ban list, even under the Bush administration when they knew full well it had no chance of passage (HR 1022, 110th Congress). It serves as a framework for the new list the Brady's plan to introduce shortly. I have an outline of the Brady's current plans and targets of opportunity. It's horrific. They're going after the courts, regulatory agencies, firearms dealers and statutes in an all out effort to restrict we the people. They've made little mention of criminals. Now more than ever, attention to the entire Bill of Rights is critical. Gun bans will impact our freedoms under search and seizure, due process, confiscated property, states' rights, free speech, right to assemble and more, in addition to the Second Amendment. The Democrats current gun-ban-list proposal (final list will be worse):

Rifles (or copies or duplicates):
M1 Carbine,
Sturm Ruger Mini-14,
AR-15,
Bushmaster XM15,
Armalite M15,
AR-10,
Thompson 1927,
Thompson M1;
AK,
AKM,
AKS,
AK-47,
AK-74,
ARM,
MAK90,
NHM 90,
NHM 91,
SA 85,
SA 93,
VEPR;
Olympic Arms PCR;
AR70,
Calico Liberty ,
Dragunov SVD Sniper Rifle or Dragunov SVU, Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, or FNC, Hi-Point20Carbine, HK-91, HK-93, HK-94, HK-PSG-1, Thompson 1927 Commando, Kel-Tec Sub Rifle; Saiga, SAR-8, SAR-4800, SKS with detachable magazine, SLG 95, SLR 95 or 96, Steyr AU, Tavor, Uzi, Galil and Uzi Sporter, Galil Sporter, or Galil Sniper Rifle ( Galatz ).
Pistols (or copies or duplicates):
Calico M-110,
MAC-10,
MAC-11, or MPA3,
Olympic Arms OA,
TEC-9,
TEC-DC9,
TEC-22 Scorpion, or AB-10,
Uzi.
Shotguns (or copies or duplicates):
Armscor 30 BG,
SPAS 12 or LAW 12,
Striker 12,
Streetsweeper. Catch-all category (for anything missed or new designs):
A semiautomatic rifle that accepts a detachable magazine and has:
(i) a folding or telescoping stock,
(ii) a threaded barrel,
(iii) a pistol grip (which includes ANYTHING that can serve as a grip, see below),
(iv) a forward grip; or a barrel shroud.
Any semiautomatic rifle with a fixed magazine that can accept more than
10 rounds (except tubular magazine .22 rim fire rifles).
A semiautomatic pistol that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine, and has:
(i) a second pistol grip,
(ii) a threaded barrel,
(iii) a barrel shroud or
(iv) can accept a detachable magazine outside of the pistol grip, and
(v) a semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that can accept more than 10 rounds.
A semiautomatic shotgun with:
(i) a folding or telescoping stock,
(ii) a pistol grip (see definition below),
(iii) the ability to accept a detachable magazine or a fixed magazine capacity of more than 5 rounds, and
(iv) a shotgun with a revolving cylinder.
Frames or receivers for the above are included, along with conversion kits.
Attorney General gets carte blanche to ban guns at will: Under the proposal, the U.S. Attorney General can add any "semiautomatic rifle or shotgun originally designed for military or law enforcement use, or a firearm based on the design of such a firearm, that is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, as determined by the Attorney General."


Note that Obama's pick for this office, Eric Holder, wrote a brief in the Heller case supporting the position that you have no right to have a working firearm in your own home. In making this determination, the bill says, "there shall be a rebuttable presumption that a firearm procured for use by the United States military or any law enforcement agency is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, and shall not be determined to be particularly suitable for sporting purposes solely because the firearm is suitable for use in a sporting event." In plain English this means that ANY firearm ever obtained by federal officers or the military is not suitable for the public.


The last part is particularly clever, stating that a firearm doesn't have a sporting purpose just because it can be used for sporting purpose -- is that devious or what? And of course, "sporting purpose" is a rights infringement with no constitutional or historical support whatsoever, invented by domestic enemies of the right to keep and bear arms to further their cause of disarming the innocent.

Respectfully submitted, Alan Korwin, Author Gun Laws of America Gun Laws of America

Forward or send to every gun owner you know...
Watch This, If You Want More Proof:
YouTube - CNN- Obama To BAN Guns SPREAD THIS FOLKS, PLZ!
CNN- Obama To BAN Guns SPREAD THIS FOLKS, PLZ! - YouTube

A partial list of gun rights groups:

Gun Owners of America
Gun Owners of America - Gun Owners Of America

Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership

FREEDOM=GUNS
FREEDOM=GUNS

National Rifle Association
NRA

Second Amendment Committee
Second Amendment Committee :: Welcome

Second Amendment Foundation
Second Amendment Foundation Online

Second Amendment Sisters
Second Amendment Sisters - Self-Defense is a Basic Human Right

Women Against Gun Control
- Women Against Gun Control

Victoria Baer

4320 Deerwood Lake Pkwy #101-222
Jacksonville, FL 32216
904.982.1734 PH
904.996.1510 FAX
http://us.mc1849.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
The Baer Edge | Jacksonville Advertising Agency
Give your business the Competive Edge…
When the defense of liberty becomes a crime, tyranny is already in force. At that point, failure to defend liberty makes slavery a certainty.
 

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I think we can all agree that some people just shouldn't be permitted to own guns. Crazy people, for example.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
International or UN Treaties are a special case. Nope, Obama has not signed it yet but he has said that he will. Some of the verbage is still being hammered out and the treaty is expected to float in its final form around March 2013. As of that signing date it WILL become the law of the land like I said until it comes to the floor of the Senate and is voted down.

Other than early drafts that leaked out, no one outside the UN committee that wrote it has been able to get a draft copy until it was presented in July of this year in the UN.

The wording of the ATT is so broad and vague that any signing member "state" can interpret it to do whatever they feel necessary domestically regarding small arms to meet the terms of the treaty. Our gun lobbies have been trying for some time to get specific wording into the treaty that excludes civilian arms activities exclusively within a nation state but it won't fly with the UN treaty writers.

Some of the troubling verbage from a draft of the treaty;

ARTICLE 2

4. Each State Party shall establish or update, as appropriate, and maintain a national control list that shall include the items that fall within Paragraph 1 above, as defined on a national basis, based on relevant UN instruments at a minimum. Each State Party shall publish its control list to the extent permitted by national law.

note: small arms and light weapons are included in that list and those
include rifles of all types, hand guns and shot guns

ARTICLE 12

ENFORCEMENT

  1. Each State Party shall adopt national legislation or other appropriate national measures regulations and policies as may be necessary to implement the obligations of this Treaty.
 
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