Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum banner

1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
well, ive thought of this for a while. ive always wante to do this, but then i got thinking about the whole torqueless thing. it will be a street car. either way, i want it to rev. i want either a 331 with 4v cleveland heads, or a 408. im torn between the two. either way, i want the engine to turn at least 6250rpm, and make 400hp. it will have a solit roller either way. it will be built as g-machine. i know alot of people say that torque is king on the street, but how true is this? oh, and if i did the 331, i would want it to rev to more like 6500 - 6750. thanks guys.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,287 Posts
"Torque is king on the street!"

IF...you run slicks/drag radials all the time.
IF...your car is capable of hooking up all that torque, all the time.
IF...you like big smoky burnouts off idle.
IF...you like the challenge of REALLY driving your car to keep it pointed straight on anything resembling wet pavement.

For myself...
I like the fact that I could race my car on street tires (VERY carefully) because I didn't get into the powerband until around 3000rpm.
Also, when I WAS on slicks/drag raidals, 5000-6000rpm launches were sick fun lol.
Horsepower breaks less parts (although RPM can quickly kill things, if you're not built for it).
There's something about the feel of 7500rpm shifts that is completely unlike anything else on the planet. Torque just can't do that.

As you can see I'm an RPM junkie. My first 289 I built I shifted at 7000rpm. In a 67 coupe, with a Toploader and 4.11's, I used to kick the crap out of big block GM's all the time. This was on BFG Radials lol. At that point I was hooked.

Anyhow, your combination of a 331-408ci motor will make a good bit more torque than a little 302 with those monstrously huge (although rather inefficient) heads on it. My first piece of advice is to look up Cylinder Head Innovations (CHI) and take a look at a few of their heads. They're a Cleveland style aluminum head, based on a windsor block (SO much easier than all the mods involved in Cleveland iron heads), make awesome torque, and blow the original 4V castings away when it comes to horsepower. All with smaller runner sizes. Pricing is actually competitive when you think of the benefits (weight, power, torque, easier on compression, etc), compared to a nicely worked set of 4V heads (people think those things are made of platinum, I swear). Although they do, I believe, require a specific intake (the same company makes one btw).

Anyways, here's the link. http://www.chiheads.com/3V_185CC.php# One small bit of advice though...for your application (the 331 anyhow) I wouldn't go much over the 185cc version, unless you're planning on an aftemarket block. That will supply you happily to 7000rpm. The 225's with matching hardware/cam etc will quickly end up splitting a 302 based block down the middle. 351W blocks will fare a bit better, and if you build a 408, I'd be on the lookout for well over 600hp even if you just toss the thing together.


Hope this helps!

Cris
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
how high would a 408 rev, if i had a head like a victor jr, or something simmalar and a solid roller?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kmracer on 5/8/06 6:29am ]</font>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
thanks cris, i appreicate your input. i dont think i can swing a 2000 dollar set of heads right now, but those WILL go on one of the motors i build after school. i love those heads, and they're SOO capable.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,233 Posts
I wouldn't waste the time with the old 351C 4v heads, the newer windsor inline aluminum heads in alot of cases outflow and out perform them. No need for custom pistons two. IMO, your goal of 400hp does not require that much flow or effort.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
rw?
i know by 400 you mean 400 inch midland, but i dont know rw.

i dont know, an eagle 4.0 inch crank. haha.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kmracer on 5/9/06 11:15am ]</font>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
659 Posts
I would go with a 351w or a 393 stroked 351w. I hae them both. Got the 351w in right now and love it for the way it will spin up.
Liked the 393 also as it had gobs of torque right off idle.
My 351w solid roller will turn 7200 in a heartbeat.
I intend on putting the stroker back in later this summer to compare times of the 2 motors.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,251 Posts
On 2006-05-08 12:17, dfree383 wrote:
I wouldn't waste the time with the old 351C 4v heads, the newer windsor inline aluminum heads in alot of cases outflow and out perform them.
Kasse maybe, most else - no. Especially not for the same price. Small block heads that flow over 300 intake with a mild port are not very cheap. The custom piston is the kicker for a 4V head, unless you find some with a thick deck and cut the intake valve notch. If it wasn't for that big intake valve, a 302 with a 4V 351C head would be just like building any other 302 with a 61-64 cc head.

He meant "do you want 400 rwhp (rear wheel hp) or 400 fwhp (flywheel hp)", not a 400 inch engine. And it's a 400, not a "midland" - There's a 351M and the M stands for...nothing, it's just an M. Likely because they already had a C and a W, so they probably just flipped the W over. When you use the word "midland" people think you've been reading Mustangs & Fords magazine.

Back to the original question - you can get 400 fwhp out of a 351, but I'd use a proven small block head like an AFR or some such. It may not be very streetable when you get there.

Since you want to keep engine speed low, you need cubic inches.

It's all about torque. If you want a fun street car, build a torquey motor and forget about HP. HP is just a calculated figure and not even measured on a dyno. Good for bench racing though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
OHHHH. 400 at the crank. 400hp at the wheel would be too much for me.
ive decided upon just doing a simple 302 build, like the old joe sherman build. i figure something like this would just flat out be too much power. im 16 and this is my first car. ive had my liscense for 7 months, i do drive my car hard, but am responsible about it. the motor in the car right now is a 289 with a flowmaster exhaust, full length headers, and electric fans. other than that, its basicly stock. its not very fast, and im fed up with it. haha, thats basicly it. i know i probly COULD buld either if these motors, but it would take me 6 months to make the money for them.

so a sherman 302 it is. cheap, easy build. the only change will be an isky solid FT cam. something like the 378 or the 358. i dont know which of the 2 would be better. 358 has less duration, but it says it has a "rough" idle. 379 says something along the lines of "lopey" idle. to me, rough is less streetable than lopey. i dont want a radical idle, i just want something with some lope.

anyways. how less streetable is the victor jr compared to the RPM AG? i like both.

oh, and will i be able to attain 6750 rpm's with a 750 carb?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,233 Posts
On 2006-05-09 07:01, ckelly wrote:
On 2006-05-08 12:17, dfree383 wrote:
I wouldn't waste the time with the old 351C 4v heads, the newer windsor inline aluminum heads in alot of cases outflow and out perform them.
Kasse maybe, most else - no. Especially not for the same price. Small block heads that flow over 300 intake with a mild port are not very cheap. The custom piston is the kicker for a 4V head, unless you find some with a thick deck and cut the intake valve notch. If it wasn't for that big intake valve, a 302 with a 4V 351C head would be just like building any other 302 with a 61-64 cc head.

He meant "do you want 400 rwhp (rear wheel hp) or 400 fwhp (flywheel hp)", not a 400 inch engine. And it's a 400, not a "midland" - There's a 351M and the M stands for...nothing, it's just an M. Likely because they already had a C and a W, so they probably just flipped the W over. When you use the word "midland" people think you've been reading Mustangs & Fords magazine.

Back to the original question - you can get 400 fwhp out of a 351, but I'd use a proven small block head like an AFR or some such. It may not be very streetable when you get there.

Since you want to keep engine speed low, you need cubic inches.

It's all about torque. If you want a fun street car, build a torquey motor and forget about HP. HP is just a calculated figure and not even measured on a dyno. Good for bench racing though.
Let me rephrase that they have much better flow velocities and produce better more useable power..........
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,251 Posts
>Let me rephrase that they have much better flow velocities and produce
>better more useable power..........

I'll go along with some of that. The technology exists to rework the older heads to improve velocity but you really have to want to use the heads. There are so many good heads available for the "W" series engines that it's really a "why bother" doing the clevor thing.

>anyways. how less streetable is the victor jr compared to the RPM AG? i
>like both.

The Vjr can be a streetable intake if the tune up is right. Good heads, good ring seal, right size cam and carb - all depends.

>oh, and will i be able to attain 6750 rpm's with a 750 carb?
No, it'll crap out at 6725. What's the deal with the specific RPM notations?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,233 Posts
I've never used the Air Gap but the Regular RPM & Victor JR have both served me well in Street / Strip applications.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
On 2006-05-10 06:57, ckelly wrote:
>Let me rephrase that they have much better flow velocities and produce
>better more useable power..........

I'll go along with some of that. The technology exists to rework the older heads to improve velocity but you really have to want to use the heads. There are so many good heads available for the "W" series engines that it's really a "why bother" doing the clevor thing.

>>> well, the only reason woul be that they are fairly cheap. i dont have 1500 bucks to spend on heads. they are 500 - 600 bucks after machine work. i also like the fact that they present a bit of a challenge, and they are something not everyone runs.

>anyways. how less streetable is the victor jr compared to the RPM AG? i
>like both.

The Vjr can be a streetable intake if the tune up is right. Good heads, good ring seal, right size cam and carb - all depends.

>oh, and will i be able to attain 6750 rpm's with a 750 carb?
No, it'll crap out at 6725. What's the deal with the specific RPM notations?

>>> well, its the same as someone asking if a combo will make 1000hp. its a goal. i would like it to rev somewhere in there. project 11.99 shifted at 6700, so i would guess it would be good for about 7000 rpm.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
138 Posts
I know this really has nothing to do w/ this topic, but the 351M
does stand for something if you ever read the valve cover sticker it states 351M/400 it stands for 351 MODIFIED/ 400 family basically its a 400 w/ a 351 W crank, after the demise of the cleveland ford could not keep up with the demands of the 351 c.i.d & the windsor was not enough to keep up w/demand so ford dropped a windsor crank into a 400 block since the bore was the same all they need was the same stroke hence the 351 modified. Early when the 400 came out it was called a 400 cleveland but the cleveland name was dropped due to it being the only 400 ford made
Also on 429, 429/460
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Top