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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm losing my mind.

I am aware of the problems that can result due to incorrectly installing the torque converter on the shafts and then cranking up the engine to the trans when installing....

My questions is...as a result of the engine now not turning over by hand with the trans bolted up....

....how can you tell if in fact you HAVE damaged the transmission pump or torque converter as a result of a possible incorrect alignment of the TC/Splines/Engine?

I have not turned the engine over or forced anything....the trans and engine bolted together easily and tightly without problem. But, I cannot turn the crank by hand as I could before...it's rock hard. All 4 TC studs are ready to be nutted to the flexplate (but obviously I haven't done that since I am still in failure mode)

Could it be that I possibly have the trans in some gear and I'm trying to turn the crank by hand and essentially trying to roll the car forward by doing so? Is it an alignment problem with the TC? If so, how do I tell if I did damage anything?
 

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If installed correctly the TQ converter should be loose in the flywheel. Meaning its not in a bind. Did you check before installing trans that pilot on the TQ converter would fit the hole on the crankshaft ok? Did you make sure the hole in crankshaft didn't have an old pilot bearing left in it? If the TQ converter is up against the flywheel in a bind then the TQ isn't properly seated in the trans.
 

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If installed correctly the TQ converter should be loose in the flywheel. Meaning its not in a bind. Did you check before installing trans that pilot on the TQ converter would fit the hole on the crankshaft ok? Did you make sure the hole in crankshaft didn't have an old pilot bearing left in it? If the TQ converter is up against the flywheel in a bind then the TQ isn't properly seated in the trans.

I agree 100% BUT!...

Take free ALL of the bell bolts and slip tranny back about 3/8" or enough that you can turn over the engine by hand wrench like you could before.

ONLY THEN, if the engine is turnable, remove the 4 nuts on the Converter and re-tighten the bell bolts and snug the engine to the trans and see if the converter will wiggle back and forth in the bolt slots freely. If you have to fight it, you should yank the tranny and pull the converter, pull the front pump, check for damage, remove the center shaft and inspect for damage and proper length Etc...

Shouldn't take you more than a day in the driveway to do all this and find the culprit causing the issue.

Secondly, the pump will not necessarily be broken simply due to the binding, but it's more than a possibility.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Update. So I dropped the trans out of the car to inspect and yes, I caused damage.
It appears the problem was in the 'last' of the 3 spots that need to be aligned. I've dented the outer machined part of the torque converter by forcing it in to the pump area.
I know that is the problem because the 2 dents are corresponding to the 2 factory flat spots on the TC that go in to the pump, but 90 degrees off from where they should have been!
Luckily I did a search on our local on-line classifieds and found a guy with a basement full of C4 parts. He has a pump and will install it for me this weekend if I bring it to his house - and he's a certified transmission mechanic! He is also going to teach me a 'trick' to installing so this won't happen again. When he does, I will share it here.
 

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Well, ya shoulda asked before you did this. Your flex plate may also be bent now. You need to check it. Since we are on this subject anyway you should get the reinforcing ring to bolt the flexplate onto the crank if you don't have one. People tend to not put them back on. I had a flexplate almost come apart and I can't prove it but the reinforcing ring wasn't there so I got one for the new flexplate.

Here is one on eeee baeeehhh.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Stupid thing is, I was aware of this problem happening even before I started, not sure how I got to this point.

We pulled the fluid pump out today, cracked it open to check for damage and yes, I cracked both of the oil ring gears inside the pump. We were able to rebuild it with parts off another pump. Slathered the thing in petroleum jelly and reattached it to the transmission. I have photos and will post them of the damage in the next day or so.
 

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... Since we are on this subject anyway you should get the reinforcing ring to bolt the flexplate onto the crank if you don't have one. ...
+1. The flex plates tend to get radial cracks from the bolt holes without that silly little plate.
:tup:
David
 

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Stupid thing is, I was aware of this problem happening even before I started, not sure how I got to this point.

We pulled the fluid pump out today, cracked it open to check for damage and yes, I cracked both of the oil ring gears inside the pump. We were able to rebuild it with parts off another pump. Slathered the thing in petroleum jelly and reattached it to the transmission. I have photos and will post them of the damage in the next day or so.
Stick the pics in the C4 forum as well, may just help someone else . Lucky you prob saved the pump housing by fixing now
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Clutch part Gear Clutch Auto part Rotor


Auto part


This is what happens to the oil pump gears when you don't align the TC properly. The two flat spots on the TC should slide in to the spaces on the inner ring gear. When they don't and you try to 'pull' the bellhousing on to the engine with the mounting bolts, you're forcing the TC on to the ring gear and eventually crack it. You'll also notice dimples on the TC shaft end that were made as a result of the incorrect alignment.

I was lucky enough to have access to a spare pump and had the gears swapped out without too much trouble or cost. The burrs on the TC were sanded smooth and were not affecting the bearing/seal surface.

Live and learn.
 

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That torque converter snout looks bent to me or hopefully it is just the photo. If it is bent you won't get a good seal on that. This is something a rebuilder will typically cut off and weld a new one on.
 

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Hello ,
I dont mean to butt in ... but ... I have an issue .
I have a 68 302 and a 74 c4 transmission ( not original to this car ) a new 157 tooth flex plate , new spacer plate .
When I tried to aline everything , my starter wont bolt to the bell . the bolt holes dont line up.name says... very green , this is my first project . can anyone tell me whats wrong ... besides the fact that I don't know what I am doing.
like my
 

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Hello ,
I dont mean to butt in ... but ... I have an issue .
Hello Green. Not a problem, but to get best responses, you should generally start a new thread with a new subject for answers. It also makes it easier for other folks with issues to find answers later. In the mean-time...
When I tried to align everything , my starter won't bolt to the bell . the bolt holes don't line up.
I would first ask for more info. Is this a previously functioning setup or a new combination of parts? If it was working before, what has changed?

Generally, a starter alignment issue is usually just the wrong starter type. There are several types of Ford starters, but only two basic varieties for small block Fords - long and short nose. An automatic trans flexplate would use the long-nose version. See the pic below to determine which you have. Your answers will help us determine what the issue is.

David

The 'short' nose version has the drive gear mostly recessed into the starter body. The 'long' nose version has the gear mostly exposed in the opening. Ignore the rest of the starter appearance for now:

 

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thank you for taking the time to respond ,

the transmission is new to the car , I send my old one out to be reworked and they lost, misplaced or sold it and I was given this one by the shop owner. according to him it is a better trans than my original.
everything matches , bolt wise except the starter to the bell.
if you were to take the bell out of the mix everything lines up - spacer plate , starter to crank . the spacer plate seems to be smaller than the bell.

thanks again
David
 

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... if you were to take the bell out of the mix everything lines up - spacer plate , starter to crank . the spacer plate seems to be smaller than the bell.
Ah, then there is your issue - not the starter. The block plate (spacer plate), flex plate, torque converter and bellhousing must match each other. From "spacer plate seems to be smaller than the bell", I have to assume your bellhousing is of the larger type (164T) and your block plate is the smaller one (157T). Here's the big problem:


  • Is the flex plate and torque converter 157T or 164T? If they are 157T (which uses a 10.5" bolt-circle converter), then you need to replace the bell to match the rest.
  • If they are 164T (using a 11.5" bolt-circle converter) then you need a new block plate.
Note that the two flex plates cannot interchange converter type (except with a custom aftermarket version). To avoid spending the money on the wrong part, you need to identify all four parts, and replace the one that does not match. As I don't know what you had before (likely a 157T setup in 1968) or what the trans shop supplied, or if those parts matched, then I'd start from scratch and figure it out myself. Then I'd go the the trans shop and have them exchange for what you know you need at no charge.

David
 
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