[Martin_T]

Hi
I would like some advice on the initial setup of a Cloyes 3 keyway Timing chain and gear. The instructions are a little vague for me. The three keyways, according to the factory instructions are Retard keyway, Factory keyway and Advance keyway. Do I assume that this will be adjusted and setup once fitted using a degree wheel (I have one on order)? If thats the case, what will I set the timing chain\gear to initially? Do I just fit it using the Factory keyway and then use the Degree wheel to set everything up after(never used a degree wheel before but I am sure it will be well explained).

One other question while I'm at it(!). I got a set of ARP head stud to fit the AFR heads to the block. They came with stud guides but no washers. Is that OK or do I need washers as well?

Thanks

Martin

 

[KULTULZ]

The main reason for using a degree wheel is ascertaining the CL of the cam is correct from the grinder. Another reason is to check basic static timing.

The multi-indexed gear is to either install the cam straight-up, advanced or retarded (varying cam timing).

If the heads are ALUM, you will need flat ground hardened washers also.

 

[Martin_T]

The main reason for using a degree wheel is ascertaining the CL of the cam is correct from the grinder. Another reason is to check basic static timing.

The multi-indexed gear is to either install the cam straight-up, advanced or retarded (varying cam timing).

If the heads are ALUM, you will need flat ground hardened washers also.

Hi

So how do I install the Timing chain initially, advanced, retarded or Factory?

Thanks

Martin

 

[RAGGAREN]

Hi

So how do I install the Timing chain initially, advanced, retarded or Factory?

Thanks

Martin

0* deg..factory

 

[retyler]

I would think it would depend on year and type of motor and cam instructions. Some came from factory with retard built in. But 0 is a good starting point.

 

[KULTULZ]

I would think it would depend on year and type of motor and cam instructions. Some came from factory with retard built in. But 0 is a good starting point.

Good Point.

The 73/ EGR engines had retarded timing whether in the actual grind or the timing set.

 

[cockroachdave]

Hi

So how do I install the Timing chain initially, advanced, retarded or Factory?

Thanks

Martin

It really depends on what you want to do with the engine. A little advance lowers the torque line to a lower RPM. Retarding raises it. Manual trannys work well with a retarded cam as do high stall torque convertered cars. A heavier car or one with tall gears or a tight converter might do better with some advance timing or zero advance. Assuming we're talking about hydraulic cams here be they flat tappet or roller. Solid cams work pretty much the same but are less forgiving unless you use the rockers to either take up or lose some of the timing. Tell me about your car and I'll give you an opinion. Albeit somewhat uneducated tho experienced.
Dave.

 

[PSIG]

+1 to everything the roach said, but I would add that

1. cam advance/retard is a tuning tool after you get initial results, and
2. if you think you need to use other than straight-up (0°) on first assembly, then you should have picked a different cam in the first place.

My 2 cents.

David

 

[DanH]

+1 to everything the roach said, but I would add that

1. cam advance/retard is a tuning tool after you get initial results, and
2. if you think you need to use other than straight-up (0°) on first assembly, then you should have picked a different cam in the first place.

My 2 cents.

David

#2 - about need for a different cam .. Thats a very wrong statement

 

[PSIG]

#2 - about need for a different cam .. Thats a very wrong statement

Go ahead.

David

 

[DanH]

Go ahead.

David

OK -I'll say it again . You made a very wrong statement

 

[PSIG]

Alright, but you explanation is missing something. I stated that, as all intake and exhausts events are advanced or retarded together. While that can be used as a compromise "tweak" in tuning, in most cases you only want the intake or exhaust events changed - not both - to get the effect you need. This is one of the advantages of dual overhead cams, as they can be changed independently.

If you need something different than how the cam was ground, and you know it before you even install it, then I believe you should order the cam with the events where you really need them in the first place. If nothing else, it gives you the same room to tweak as you had before - just closer to the mark to begin with.

David

 

[DanH]

Alright, but you explanation is missing something. I stated that, as all intake and exhausts events are advanced or retarded together. While that can be used as a compromise "tweak" in tuning, in most cases you only want the intake or exhaust events changed - not both - to get the effect you need. This is one of the advantages of dual overhead cams, as they can be changed independently.

If you need something different than how the cam was ground, and you know it before you even install it, then I believe you should order the cam with the events where you really need them in the first place. If nothing else, it gives you the same room to tweak as you had before - just closer to the mark to begin with.

David

first-straight up . straight up has a definite meaning when cam timing

"you know it before you even install it" - now that is not the cams fault .
I'd say the wrong engine builder

"it gives you same room to tweak as had before" why would any tweaking be needed?

2nd- lot of custom cams are ground straight up, while off the shelf ones have advance in them. the exact timing is then adjusted by the builder .

a statement if not straight up and need another cam is wrong

 

[cmefly]

Hi
One other question while I'm at it(!). I got a set of ARP head stud to fit the AFR heads to the block. They came with stud guides but no washers. Is that OK or do I need washers as well?

Thanks

Martin

If you are using a 302 with the AFR heads that have the 1/2 bolt hole (351W) and your stud inserts are converting the hole from 1/2 to 7/16 then the reducing shim is all that is needed. It should have a shoulder for the bolt head to sit on and acts as the washer protecting the head.