Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum banner

21 - 40 of 56 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,141 Posts
Discussion Starter #21
Dennis,
I managed to get the $25.00 case Saturday. The person I got it from ran Toploaders for many years in his racecars. I'm not 100% sure but I think it will be usable.

The holes that bolt it to the bellhousing have been enlarged? I didn't ask any questions as I hope to get a few more needed parts from this person. He has shelves full of old toploader and performace parts for SBFs.

Take a look at the stamps in the top rail.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,977 Posts
Interesting piece of history there. The stampings look like it had some type of early Doug Nash parts installed in the Ford cast case.

I don't think the bolt holes will present any problem as long as the throwout bearing retainer fits properly in you bellhousing/scattershield. If the holes concern you and you have a scattershield with both sets of mounting holes, use the innermost bolt holes.

Otherwise it wouldn't be to hard to either make a steel or brass bushing for each hole OR make a double threaded stud and use nuts. No matter what, be sure that the transmission is solidly against the bellhousing before snugging the bolts/threads to prevent breaking the remaining ears.

Hopefully nothing else was modified on the case for the DN conversion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,141 Posts
Discussion Starter #23
As far as I can tell there is no mods other than the big mounting holes.
I was considering bushing them, but maybe there is an advantage in stud
mounting? The bell side of the hole has been chamfered, maybe to ease install?

I will ask the person I got it from soon.

D111, is there a prep and paint that works well for the case or?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,977 Posts
Studs are almost always preferable to bolts in any application due to better clamping force. Also studs will help guide you better during transmission installation, as per my tech article. The chamfer was probably used as you suggested.

Clean cast is how the toploader came from the factory, but I prefer to paint them.

I take my cases to work and media blast them until the rust and paint is gone. If I have the time, I normally primer the outside with Red Rustoleum and let it age for a month or so. If I am in a hurry, I go straight to the paint coat after a good cleaning. As for paint, any good engine enamel will do.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,141 Posts
Discussion Starter #25
For Dennis111 / 112

Dennis,
Do you know much about the three piece moduler input gear that
Dan Williams sells? There is a description of if on his site but no pictures.


I finally put my toploader together Saturday, actually twice, I had the lower reverse gear on backwards, the shift fork slot facing the rear of the case, it would not go into reverse. I think I will be doing it again as there
seems to be a shift rail detent issue also.

MC4
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,977 Posts
Re: For Dennis111 / 112

No actual experience here. The 3 piece is supposed to be very strong and good. I suggest calling Dan himself. He is a wealth of knowledge and won't try to sell you something that you don't need.

Sorry that you are having toploader assembly issues. It is a big puzzle but can only work one way. I normally lay all out on a big piece of cardboard, basically in the order and direction that the parts sit in the case. Photos taken while disassembling are a great help (R & R'ed a Subaru motor and did the heads that way-took longer to remove than to reinstall.) I also have a good step by step reference book (with pictures) for when I am rusty, If you need help on a specific area, just ask (and hopefully include pics.)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,141 Posts
Discussion Starter #27 (Edited)
Re: For Dennis111 / 112

No actual experience here. The 3 piece is supposed to be very strong and good. I suggest calling Dan himself. He is a wealth of knowledge and won't try to sell you something that you don't need.

Sorry that you are having toploader assembly issues. It is a big puzzle but can only work one way. I normally lay all out on a big piece of cardboard, basically in the order and direction that the parts sit in the case. Photos taken while disassembling are a great help (R & R'ed a Subaru motor and did the heads that way-took longer to remove than to reinstall.) I also have a good step by step reference book (with pictures) for when I am rusty, If you need help on a specific area, just ask (and hopefully include pics.)
At least I will never put the reverse gear in backwards again...
I will take some pictures. Looking at the shop manuals shift rail diagram, it appears I am missing the interlock pin #7235, Does that sound familier to you?

This would have been much easier if I had disassembled the transmission myself. I bought it 100% torn down.

Thanks.

By the way your coupe is looking good!

Sorry about the 2 threads.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,141 Posts
Discussion Starter #28
I looked through my photo archives and found a few more pics that show the difference in the springs used in the 64'-67' case vs the 68' and newer case.

64'-67' internal shift rail parts:



The above pic is actually the highly desirable 64'-65' set that uses 2 hatchet detents. The 66'-67' setup is similar.

64'-67' screw and short spring on top, 68'-73' spring long spring on bottom:



64'-67' screw installed in case:



68'-73' long spring installed in same hole does not use a screw:



The cover compresses it against the detents.
I think this may be where my problem is. I did find the interlock pins on Toploader Heaven.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,977 Posts
Be sure to check out the other thread too.

There were actually several pin configurations over the years-and the notches in the shift rods can vary too. They are all interchangeable "as a set."

Chart of different years: Shift Rail ID

Don't know why they changed so often . . . . .

I don't have any extras at this time. Any of the 3 big toploader dealers (Mark Williams, Toploader Heaven, David Key) can fix you up with a usable set. I've talked to all of them and each are helpful.

1965 style kit, or individuals for each year (David Kee): Shift Rail Kit / Interlock Pins
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,977 Posts
Re: For Dennis111 / 112

The shift rail pic shows ALL the pins needed (and proper location) in EVERY toploader.



PS--There is a 3rd spring not shown in the above pic--it is short and would be the lower most part (installed before any pins.)

Just watch for the different variations (and of course the top 2 parts shown could be replaced by a single long spring in later years.)

Not sure what that pin looks like by the # given. I do have a few extras of some of the parts (individual pins, springs, and rails). Can you ID it better or have a pic?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,141 Posts
Discussion Starter #31
Dennis,
I took the detent out between the 1/2 and 3/4 shift rails, at that point it will shift into all gears fine. When the detent is reinstalled I can not put
the trans into any forward gear. The only thing I can figure is the detent that goes between the 2 rails must be shorter than the others? All of the detents I have are the conical type, I didn't get any of the hatchet type with the trans when I bought it.

I will pull it apart and measure the detents this weekend.

The kit I bought from David Kee came with plastic thrust
washers for the main counter shaft gear and the reverse idler gear.
Are the plastic washers ok?

Thanks,
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,977 Posts
Cool that you have an old Doug Nash case. They were one of the first performance builders of toploaders.

I think that we are onto something now.

From what I see of the 3/4 shift rail in your photos, you have the early type rails that I show here (same pic from above):



The early type uses 2 hatchet type pins, 3 dome type pins (not blunts), and an extra long interlock pin.

A closeup of the 3/4 shift rail and pins of the hatchet set:



A similar closeup of a 70' set which uses 5 of the same blunt pins:



Notice that the later shift rail does not have the deep neutral groove. I found a 68/69 set to be similar.

I compared the early style to some other year parts and discovered the hatchets are approximately .030" shorter than the blunt/domed when compared to the 68/69 or the 70 style.

Due to the .030 difference in the pins, I believe that if you get the correct parts (at least the 2 hatchets and the appropriate length interlock pin) you will be good to go.

IF the interlock pin you have is the long one, you might try removing it and then install all the other parts and see if it shifts. If so, my thoughts are that maybe a shorter interlock pin "might" get you by. Still the proper and complete early style would be more desirable and will last longer due to a larger contact patch.

Since you can measure what you have, here are some pics with measurements of the early style:

Hatchet:



Interlock pin:



Notch in 3/4 shift rail:



IIRC, The notch in the later styles were off by only a few thousands.

Interlock pins--early on left, 70' on right:



As far as the nylon bushings, there is nothing wrong with using them and they may even be preferred. The idea behind either the copper based ones or the nylon ones is that they can absorb metal particles which helps prevent those particles from interfering with the roller bearings or other parts of the toploader.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,141 Posts
Discussion Starter #33 (Edited)
Dennis,
I think with your help I am begining to understand the shift rail differences much better.

My trans came with this combination of detents and interlock.
http://www.davidkeetoploaders.com/type2.htm

I went out measure everything this morning but the battery in my calipers had died.

I will get the parts measured and get those dims posted.

Thanks for your help,
Gregg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,141 Posts
Discussion Starter #34
Dennis,
I think with your help I am begining to understand the shift rail differences much better.

I went out measure everything this morning but the battery in my calipers had died.

I will get the parts measured and get those dims posted.

Thanks for your help,
Gregg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,977 Posts
Dennis,
I think with your help I am begining to understand the shift rail differences much better.

My trans came with this combination of detents and interlock.
Type 2

I went out measure everything this morning but the battery in my calipers had died.

I will get the parts measured and get those dims posted.

Thanks for your help,
Gregg
Those parts do look like a matching combination and all the detents would be the same. Only the early combo that I show (type 1 from 65') use 2 different detents. Your blunt type should have 5 identical length detents. I have not used that specific combo recently.

I am now wondering if the shift rail notches are actually fully aligned in the neutral positions when you try to shift. The "unused" detents need to tuck inside the notches in order for the desired rail to move. The combination of detents and the interlock pin will prevent shifting into 2 gears at the same time.

Another thought. I find that sometimes the brass blockers will firmly grab the gear while test fitting on the bench and need apart from it in order to spin into position. This will prevent the slider from moving over the blocker and gear.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,141 Posts
Discussion Starter #36
The latest.

There is a fifth detent that measures .428 not shown.

I thought I had figured out the problem when I found the short detent.

The short detent was installed between the reverse rail and the 3/4 rail.

I decided to move it between the 3/4 and 1/2 rails, but after putting one of the longer ones on top of reverse I could not slide the 3/4 rail in.

The reverse shift cam is the long one correct?
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,141 Posts
Discussion Starter #37
I am now wondering if the shift rail notches are actually fully aligned in the neutral positions when you try to shift. The "unused" detents need to tuck inside the notches in order for the desired rail to move. The combination of detents and the interlock pin will prevent shifting into 2 gears at the same time.
I think I need to look at this closer, it seemed as though the detents were
falling in their proper notches but I did notice the 3/4 fork was not tightening up properly so I may have that rail out of synch.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,977 Posts
The latest.

There is a fifth detent that measures .428 not shown.

I thought I had figured out the problem when I found the short detent.

The short detent was installed between the reverse rail and the 3/4 rail.

I decided to move it between the 3/4 and 1/2 rails, but after putting one of the longer ones on top of reverse I could not slide the 3/4 rail in.

The reverse shift cam is the long one correct?
I'm really confused now. I can't even guess where a single short detent would go if it came from the factory that way. If it was a pair, I would put them between the 3 shift rails. The other 3 would located under reverse, on the top of all the rails, and under the bolt under the case. Something is wrong with your parts or, quite probably, you need to get some professional help--for that I would call Dan Williams and explain the predicament.

I do agree that if I had 1 odd detent I would probably try it under the reverse rail. Also check on that shift fork and make sure that the set screw is engaged fully in the hole. As I said before, the notches have to be in alignment for the detents to be able to "get out of the way" in order to shift.

What is the length of the interlock pin? Wondering if it is the long or the short pin as shown above. . . . . The short pin would use the long detents and the long pin would use the short detents.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
398 Posts
Re: For Dennis111 / 112

Dennis,
Do you know much about the three piece moduler input gear that
Dan Williams sells? There is a description of if on his site but no pictures.




MC4
Dan Williams told me his stuff wont break...I ran that input in my toploader.. after breaking two liberty big spline inputs I went with the modular setup, had liberty weld a dog ring to a spare syncro ring and was able to keep the proshift, wide ratio, big spline setup.. never had an issue after that. and if it did hurt a part it would be a simple parts swap and not a whole new cut, welded, modified stock piece...liberty had to take two input shafts to make one and would take forever, but how else back then could you get a wide ratio, small block, big spline input. Nash did the same things, they had even steeper first gear ratio's, crazy stuff...I had to keep one as a spare and a stock one in case I needed to go back syncro shifting .... someone at one time even had a 26 spline input conversion so you could keep the stock t-bearing and tube but have a stronger input shaft, even stronger than the big spline, but that place went out in the 90's.. a chevy clutch disc is way easier to find than a big spline ford...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Hello,

Could you please give me the diameter and lenght of the two interlock pins?
I rebuild my tranny and find out that no interlock pin is there.

I check on David Kee site but can't tell which one it should be. The tranny is from a '73 Mexican Sprint Mach 1, and when I look the rail kit it's not the 71/73 one I have, but 69 or 70, rail kit 4 or 5.

Shift Rail ID

Thank you,

Manu
 
21 - 40 of 56 Posts
Top