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Discussion Starter #21
I have to give this some thought, my Magnaflows #11256 are 2.5" in and out. Not sure I want to spend another $200 on mufflers plus the piping to go to 3". I guess 2.5" is better than 2" but not as good as 3". Hopefully I can post the dyno chart tomorrow and see what other advice I get. I am wanting to improve what I get from my motor but being on a budget I need to consider ALL options for improvement. I need better exhaust flow, got it!
 

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Posted an inquiry about a mandrel bent exhaust for a 1967 Galaxie on the 332-428 Ford FE Engine Forum message board, and got some really cool responses!

332-428 Ford FE Engine Forum: 1967 Galaxie Mandrel Bent Exhaust?

Looks like GM A-body tail pipes work just fine on the 65-67 galaxies! These are mandrel bent 2-1/2" units, which should be just fine... and a MAJOR improvement over what you've got... plus, they are only $129 for the pair from Summit, which is a killer deal. You could let the muffler shop run pipe back to them, as there shouldn't be too many tight bends.

If I were on a budget, I'd run either 3" or 2-1/2" back to the mufflers, then run these over the axles. Really, as long as the front part of the exhaust is fairly straight, 2-1/2" all the way back should be fine.

Good Luck!
 

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My first reaction to your sheet is that it's just another engine that needs tuning, with emphasis on ignition. However, that assumes everything is right and it just needs attention. In this case, the toque curve peaks shallow and never gives the HP a chance to build with RPM. Your HP should peak above 5000 rather than fall-off, based on your TQ peak. Again, my reaction would be tuning, with a bit of leaning on fuel and some sweeps for timing. However, the lack of HP build with RPM in an unknown combo could also be any restriction that is holding the breathing back.

This could be a carb restriction (not opening fully, too small, choke plate not open, secondary opening wrong or failed, etc.), or poorly matched intake (type, port mis-match, wrong gaskets, etc.), or exhaust flow (restrictive headers, wrong gaskets, lumpy internal welds, poor exhaust system, etc.), or finally poor breathing through incorrect or mis-matched valve timing. That's a lot to consider, but is the 'whole package' concept to getting full performance.

If this were a car that just rolled-up out of the blue and the driver complained of less performance than expected, I would first check everything visually for obvious issues (as far as possible), as listed above. Then I would do a basic tune check for acceptable fuel control, WOT ignition timing, temps, blow-by indications, etc., just to get a baseline. What I learned along that path would tell me more about where issues would be and where to focus attention. So, that's what I would suggest to you - overall systems checks followed by basic tuning and analyze the results for clues to the next step.

David
 

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Discussion Starter #26
Thanks PSIG for the patience to explain these things, you have given me a lot to think about and things I need to learn how to do.

I got the big picture on the exhaust and I think I know what needs to be done even though I am stuck at 2 1/2" from the muffler back.

I need to learn a lot on checking and adjusting the carb.

I can use a timing light, but am not familiar with tuning with timing.

What are blow back indications?

What do you mean by temps, related to timing?
 

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I need to learn a lot on checking and adjusting the carb.

I can use a timing light, but am not familiar with tuning with timing.

What are blow back indications?

What do you mean by temps, related to timing?
Actually, the carb is first inspected for full opening at pedal WOT, float level and fuel pressure. Adjusting the carb begins fairly easy by leaning the jets a couple steps. Then you need to adjust your secondary vacuum opening using Holley guidelines. Check results on the next pull. At least you will be closer and ready for dyno "tweaking". Cruise, power valve, idle and accel pump adjustments can be done on the road later.

Ignition timing will begin with WOT or "all-in" timing. If this was not tested on the dyno, then you can either wait for your next session, or get it close on the street first. Normally, this is done on the dyno or track where power or best MPH indicates best timing. If on the street, a data logger or video is often used to get accurate acceleration times from __ MPH to __ MPH or __ RPM to __ RPM.

Set your timing a bit low - say 30 degrees total. Get on the highway, and (safely) decel to the bottom of a gear that will let you accel in that gear to redline without blasting past the speed limit. Usually 2nd gear. Do a run through the gear and note time. Repeat to check consistency. Pull over and bump the timing 4 degrees and do it again. When the runs show no improvement, back-off 2 and test. If no change, back-off another 2 and test. You should end-up where you have best accel times with minimum timing.

Blow-by indications are simply looking for signs of excess blow-by out your breather or oil dipstick tube. Assuming it was broken-in properly, this signifies poor ring sealing, ring damage, or other issue. Not only can this lose power, but worse, it allows oil into the chambers which causes detonation much sooner under load. This can be a limitation to tuning, though a much larger concern with boost or nitrous.

The spark plug temperatures (plug reading) are an indicator of tuning and what the engine wants. No matter what you think it should be, the engine leaves signs whether it is happy or not. Plug temperature (the electrode for timing and the base of the insulator for fuel) tell you if you are giving the engine what it wants. The plugs will show the conditions it was shut-off at, so if testing WOT, then do a shutdown from WOT without idling or driving at other throttle settings. Plug reading is usually done along with the timing runs.

It seems a lot to take-in, but learn and do one task at a time, and you'll get the hang of it. The dyno guys should be familiar with all of this and more. They should be able to answer your questions as you go. While dyno time and tuning time are charged separately, if doing your own tuning, the operator will usually be helpful if you are doing the work.

David
 

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Get the exhaust done first before doing any more tuning. The exhaust is SO restrictive on that application, that if you try and tune it now, it will need tuned all over again after the exhaust is put on.

The horsepower is leveling off because the exhaust system can't properly ventilate the cylinders, so it just hits a wall. (this is assuming everything else is working properly, and you don't have multiple things to deal with)

Check the easy things like making sure you're getting full throttle, but make the exhaust a priority. Muffler shop 2.5" back to see-through mufflers like Walker Dynomax or Magnaflows... and the 2.5" mandrel bent tails like linked above, should make a huge improvement.

Good Luck!
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Question on muffler.

I currently have Magnaflow #11256 which is an oval 4" by 9" , offset in/out and 2.5" in and out. Should I change the mufflers when I go to 2.5" pipes or, are these mufflers OK. If I should change what recommendations are there for model #?
 

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Question on muffler.

I currently have Magnaflow #11256 which is an oval 4" by 9" , offset in/out and 2.5" in and out. Should I change the mufflers when I go to 2.5" pipes or, are these mufflers OK. If I should change what recommendations are there for model #?
The larger/longer an absorption muffler is, the quieter it will be. Yours sound pretty short. If you don't mind how loud it is, they should be fine. If you want it to be quieter, then you'll want to get some larger, longer mufflers.

One other thing... Magnaflow has had some bad press lately on their offset mufflers. It seems some of them, their perforated cores have crimped bends. If yours are smooth, then they should be fine. Their product seems to have been cheapened... probably by their advertising budget, which is immense! The Walker Dynomax is pretty much the exact same muffler, with a more robust construction, without the kinked perforated tubing on the core. If you buy new mufflers, you may want to consider the Dynomax.

Good Luck!
 

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Discussion Starter #31
The 4x9 is 4" thick and 9" wide. The magnaflow is 18" long not counting the in/out tubes.

I would like to stay with them since they are paid for, but not if it is going to cost 25 HP. The muffler back GM A body mandrel pipes are $129 and probably another $150 -$200 labor and misc tubing/hangers/etc. New mufflers are $140 to $180 for the set. If it is not a big performance drag I can save the money for mufflers for other work that will need to be done. What do you think, can I reuse the mufflers or should I fork over the money for new ones?
 

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The 4x9 is 4" thick and 9" wide. The magnaflow is 18" long not counting the in/out tubes.

I would like to stay with them since they are paid for, but not if it is going to cost 25 HP. The muffler back GM A body mandrel pipes are $129 and probably another $150 -$200 labor and misc tubing/hangers/etc. New mufflers are $140 to $180 for the set. If it is not a big performance drag I can save the money for mufflers for other work that will need to be done. What do you think, can I reuse the mufflers or should I fork over the money for new ones?
You shouldn't need new mufflers. Just run new 2.5" pipe back to your 2.5" mufflers, then install the 2.5" mandrel bent tailpipes, and you're good. The muffler shop will probably be glad to see you come in with the tailpipes, as fabbing up new ones would probably be a pain. It should be pretty quick and easy.

One question... Why/how were you using 2.5" mufflers... and only 2" pipe?

Will it be easy to remove the mufflers from the system so they can be reused?
 

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Discussion Starter #33
I took a short cut because the muffler shop only had 2" in stock and I wanted it done that day, I could have waited a few days, but I was in such a rush to get it on the road I didn't stop to think about performance. Mistake!

All joints are welded so I am hoping that he can use a cut off saw so they can be reused. I am going to take it to him first and get his advice on the tail pipes. When I look at the front tubes, they have 2 pretty good bends in them to bring them from the side of the engine to the center of the car to fit into an X pipe. I may be able to straighten those bend out by using a H pipe.
 

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There should be no issue with cutting and reusing the 2.5 mufflers. When I get some time late summer or fall, I'd like to set-up a basic flow bench for pipes to get some real numbers for different bend angles, and mandrel, crush and crimp bends. While I was told by a respected flow-bench operator that the non-mandrel bends don't actually hurt flow like you'd think (think D-port heads), I would like to get my own numbers to verify.

Should be simple and repeatable - like a leaf blower and a MAF sensor. Others could then test and match results using a benchmark such as X length of Y diameter .065" pipes. A simple calculation could then be used to align the tests against each other. We could get lots of comparisons from different folks that would be valid that way. Who's in?

David
 

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DEFINITELY order the Flowmaster mandrel bent tailpipes. They will go right on, as the bends are not only much less restrictive, but also take much less room. To try and put decent sized tailpipes up and over the axle of your galaxie, will have them crushed all to hell if using a traditional bender.

When reusing the mufflers, be sure he doesn't just cut them off and weld over the restrictive 2" pipe sticking out of it. That will kill any of your gains. Be sure you get a chance to look through the mufflers after they are removed... as the easiest way for him to do it, would be to just cut them off an inch or so past the end, and just slide the larger pipe over the smaller stub. Make sure it's full sized in and out before the new exhaust is put on.

I would go with the H-pipe. Much straighter runs to the mufflers, and if an X-pipe isn't done just right, it can cost you a ton a power. If done right, it's not really any better than an H-pipe... It just sounds more shrill. Plus, it's hard to screw up an H-pipe. lol

Been there, done that when it comes to exhaust.

pics of mandrel vs. conventional bends









Good Luck!
 

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Here is the 460 engine build:

Stock block 30 over
Ported iron heads with stainless valves 2.19 int and 1.76 exh, pocket porting
Comp cams roller rockers with stud conversion, push rods
Torker II intake with heat cross over welded up
Stock Crank
Hypereutectic pistons
Stock Rods with ARP hardware
Lunati Bracket Master II #00097 with .554 lift on int and exh
Hydraulic flat tappet lifters
Engine was balanced
FPA shorty headers
Holly 80508S carb
Stock C6
3:50 mini spool Ford 9"
I built a motor for a Ford truck I owned back in the 90's and it had a .030 429 in it (83 Ford Short Wheelbase StepsideTruck) It set for about 8 years and my youngest son finally asks me if he can have it to race and I gave it to him. He replaced all the rubber hoses and tires and got it running and it ran the same ET as it did back in the day. We always thought it ran pretty good for the low compression motor. 7.90's and 80's in the 1/8th with 1.75 60 foot times. It has a weiand stealth small port intake with crappy small stock 2.08/1.65 73 heads, (huge 90 some odd cc chambers) trw flat top pistons, 700 holley double pumper and small tube headers.
Long Story short, my son decides the the hedman headers are ratty and the holley carb is ugly and puts a 950 quick fuel on it and some large tube hooker headers and the damn thing picks up over 2-3 tenths in the 1/8th. I think it ran mid 7.60's shifting at 5500rpm. 60' times now @ 1.67. Remember this an 8.8:1 compression motor with a stock eliminator cam, c6 trans with about a 3000 stall 12" torque converter. (The cam is a 1990's lunati stock eliminator class cam with tons of duration but no lift .500) Those 385 series motors with dual planes love lots of carb and free flowing exhaust. That's 50hp with a carb and header change. I just about fell out when I saw the pass.

What heads do you run?

I don't like the cam. That cam is begging for open headers.
I don't like the intake.
All in all you did pretty good with the numbers you made.

I looked up the cam and that is about as old school a cam as they come cam wise. That cam should be a low end cam all the way with a little lope.

If you have a stopped up exhaust system that would make everything even worse because it's single pattern cam.


http://www.lunatipower.com/CamSpecCard.aspx?partNumber=00097

Cam Spec Card :: Lunati Power

34-247-4 - Xtreme Energy
 

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I just had my car on a dyno (rear wheel) and it showed lower numbers than I expected. Without going into the detail of the engine I bought it came with a dyno report that I assume was a computer model of the build.

The computer model, I don't have it in front of me right now, showed to to make over 500HP. The rear wheel dyno showed 317HP and 355 torque.

Should I expect that much loss through the drive train?

The dyno was performed by the Carol Shelby Automotive school at a local community college on a Dynojet Research machine. 2 runs were recorded and they were within 5 points of each other.

I just went back and ran the details this morning and it showed 380 flywheel horsepower on that combo with the way you had it set up. That's about .16% for loss through the tranny and driveline.
 

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Discussion Starter #38
I just went back and ran the details this morning and it showed 380 flywheel horsepower on that combo with the way you had it set up. That's about .16% for loss through the tranny and driveline.

Is 16% average, below average, or above average - I don't have a point of reference to know if it is good or bad. Thanks. Not sure what casting number the heads are, I think 1973 vintage off of a Lincoln or T-bird.

I have a oil leak on the front and rear valleys of the intake. I need to take it off and put a new gasket set on because the leak is pissing me off. Since I am doing that I am strongly considering going to a Stealth dual plane and not putting the Torker single plane back on. To do that I will have to cut a hole in my hood and find some type of scoop and air cleaner combo.

I went to the muffler shop today and had a good talk with the "man". He was glad I would bring the mandrel bent over axle pipe and didn't see any issues in reusing the mufflers and insuring I get 2 1/2" from front to back. Not leaving any 2" inside the muffler or ball clamp on the collector. I ordered the pipes and should be here middle of next week. By the weekend I should be able to get the car and pipes to him.
 

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Is 16% average, below average, or above average - I don't have a point of reference to know if it is good or bad. Thanks. Not sure what casting number the heads are, I think 1973 vintage off of a Lincoln or T-bird.

I have a oil leak on the front and rear valleys of the intake. I need to take it off and put a new gasket set on because the leak is pissing me off. Since I am doing that I am strongly considering going to a Stealth dual plane and not putting the Torker single plane back on. To do that I will have to cut a hole in my hood and find some type of scoop and air cleaner combo.

I went to the muffler shop today and had a good talk with the "man". He was glad I would bring the mandrel bent over axle pipe and didn't see any issues in reusing the mufflers and insuring I get 2 1/2" from front to back. Not leaving any 2" inside the muffler or ball clamp on the collector. I ordered the pipes and should be here middle of next week. By the weekend I should be able to get the car and pipes to him.
Awesome! I'm sure you'll like the new exhaust!

The dual plane will probably work better on your engine, but you're right... That Stealth is a very tall intake. Have you looked at the Performer RPM? They surely make one of those for the 460.

Good Luck!
 

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Discussion Starter #40
I have not looked at the Performer, is it shorter or has better performance. Because I did an engine swap from a 390 to 460 the engine sits higher than the FE did. I barely have clearance now with the single plane. And I am using an 8"=10" air cleaner to keep a low profile. I assumed any dual plane was going to force me into a scoop or bubble hood.

Guess what, I was looking at WOT today and it looks like the way I have it set up I get only 3/4 of the carb WOT. I need to get a buddy to help me press the accelerator while I see if the carb is fully opening. If it is not that will also explain the flattening of the HP/Torque curve.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate all the suggestion and advice this post has provided, It is a great example of those with knowledge sharing with wanta be HOT Rodders like me.
 
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