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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Working on Falcon today, trying to get a good idle set. Finally got an idle I can live with BUT... while running engine I started to notice what looked like steam coming from the breathers. I had the water pump turning and the cooling fan on, temp was steady at 190.

Shut it down, checked dipstick and saw the dreaded 'motor milk' at the top of stick (high, 3-4" above full mark) and just a bit on the lower portion.

Pulled valve covers and saw traces of milk on underside of covers. Not a ton, more similar to what I saw on the stick.

I've been told the W's make a lot of condensation and that traces like this are not uncommon, but I'm not convinced. I'm also not quite ready to pull the heads, if I don't have to.

I replaced valve covers and then I used a Mac Tool radiator pressure tester with engine cool (under 100 degrees), pumped it up to 7 lbs and saw no drop. Bled off pressure and started engine, let it idle until temp was up to 190 (water pump and fan on). Pressure only rose to just above 4 lbs, needle quivered a very little bit. Breathers looked like little teapots. Shut off engine, bled pressure off of guage, then pumped it up to 7 lbs (water pump and fan still on). Pressure bled off quite rapidly. Checked dipstick again and stick was clean as a whistle.

The particulars:

* Outside (garage) temp about 45 degrees.
* Breathers are Moroso evac system that have not yet been plumbed to the headers.
* Punched thermostat
* 7 lb cap
* Water only in radiator with a pint of water wetter
* ARP head studs
* Rousch 200 iron heads
* Moroso gold anodized stamped aluminum valve covers.
* 351W +.030
* Engine is running on gas (C12)

Any thoughts? If I have a problem brewing I would rather address it over the next few weeks than in the spring when I finally get to the track.

Thanks

Murff
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Update:

Performed a little more forensics, and it's looking like the moisture is coming up from the lifter valley area which is making me suspect that my intake gaskets are no longer sealing off the water.

One of the particulars I forgot to mention in my OP is that I am using the Price Motorsports billet intake adapters. As a result I have (4) intake gaskets / surfaces to work with.

Not going to do anything else today, will be yanking the intake this week. If anyone still has suggestions or comments to offer, please feel free. I'm a listenin'.

Murff
 

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Let it sit overnight ,then in the morning before you start it go pull the drain plug for a second or to. Any water will settle to the bottom as oil floats on water, so if there is any water in the oil it will come out the bottom and that is your sure sign there is a problem.
 

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No need to let it sit Murff, It's very very likely your intake gaskets... If it bled off from that 7lb you have a leak. No iff's and's or butt's about it.

When I pressure test a system regardless of the type of cap a customer uses it get's 15 to 18# of pressure and wether warm, cold or hot, if it bleeds of,f there is a leak that needs addressed.
That pressure bled off and it should NOT have.

FE
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I'm with ya FE. There's not so much that I need to worry about having killed the bearings, but there's no way this can be attributed to condenstation.

BL, the water's in there for sure. It's just a matter of where it's coming from and how deep I need to go to correct it.

The Always Awesome Missus Murff (who recently went to work for a high performance warehouse) is going to bring home some fresh gaskets tomorrow. I'm planning on just using a non-high performance composite gasket, trimming to match the ports on the adapter plates, and spraying them with high tack as I re-assemble. That should ward off the evil water demons from reappearing. I will also change the oil & filter.

This may also address the problem I've been having recently with keeping a decent idle speed. 1800 - 1900 in neutral and 1400 - 1500 in gear seems just a tad high. I'd like to get it down to 1600 - 1200 but if I close down the butterflys on the hat any tighter it just chokes up & dies.

Sigh. It's always something, isn't it?

Thanks

Murff
 

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retourque them suckers tighter than usual. wish for the best....if that doesnt work, copper spray the 4 areas and torque. those adapters are most likely the seal problem. where it meets heads block, and intake.
good luck and good day
 

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What you might do before you pull it apart, is do the drain plug test. I lived in Tacoma in the 70s and had the same problem with a 73 Challeger 340. Condensation was the issue. With all the rain you've had lately, won't surprise me. Just undo the drain plug enough to get it to drip out and int a glass jar. Check the color and that'll tell you if it's condensation or your cooling system.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Still planning on draining fluids and pulling intake tonight or tomorrow but I don't think color test will be valid for me as I'm running straight water with a pint of Water Wetter for lube. Both are relatively clear.

I'm thinkin' that you're thinkin' I have anti freeze and would see the green color when I drain some off?

Thanks

Murff
 

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Yes you will see color. Put some color dye in there and find out. Could save some head ache.
 

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* Breathers are Moroso evac system that have not yet been plumbed to the headers.
The crankcase has to be vented in some fashion or water vapor (and resultant sulfuric acid) will form.

Is this a full race or street engine? If street, it has to have a PCV System. The MOROSO System you have will not ventilate the engine properly on the street.

I see you also live in the Pacific NW where humdity is very high. You are fighting two demons, combustion blow-by and water laden atmosphere.
 

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On 2006-12-06 11:34, indigo66 wrote:

are you guys not reading the part where he says he has a pressure loss?????
Yes, I am, but do not believe the pressure test was done properly. The system needs to operate at 14PSI (minimum).

Is he losing coolant volume or is the oil level rising? It should be if it has an internal leak. I think it is more like a cold engine generating water vapor out of a cold exhaust pipe. The crankcase has to be ventilated, regardless or even worse things are going to happen (especially if the pistons/rings are loose as on a full race engine).

I may be wrong (and I have been many times in my life).

The system needs to be pressure checked while cold, and again after reaching operating temperature (tool has no pressure relief-remove between tests). He has to verify the tool is good and not loosing pressure itself. If there is no pressure loss on either, he should leave it pressurized overnight and see what it reads in the morning.

It's cheaper to start at square one than tear the intake off (could also be head gasket). Check for combustion gases in coolant.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Ok, I appreciate the feedback and concern.

Laziness (and 11 hour work days this week) have kept me from working on the car yet this week. Looks like it'll have to wait until Saturday now.

In the meantime:

1) Full race engine
2) Crankcase is vented. The evac system is vented to the atmosphere (until pluming to header collectors is complete)
3) Washington state is damp. Buckets of rain & snow in past few weeks.
4) Pressure test not done properly? Please.
5) I have a 7 lb cap. If your statement about pressure testing to 14 lbs is so that I can test to double the rated pressure, Ok. Not a problem.
6) Mac Tool Cooling System Pressure Tester DOES have a pressure release mechanisim built in to it.
7) System was tested cold (under 100 degrees), held pressure for about 15 minutes.
8) Pressure test while warming to 190 degrees never rose above 4 lbs
9) Pressure test with engine off and at 190 bled off 3 lbs within two minutes.
10) Tool is functional and not defective
11) Coolant level is down "a bit"

You didn't ask, so I'll tell you. When I did my deeper forensics I noticed there was a distinct pattern of motor milk in a direct line with the pushrods on the underside of the rocker boxes. Additionally there was evidence of moisture contaminated oil at the center oil drainback in the heads, but not at the front or rear drains. Additional pressure test with engine still hot showed no evidence of moisture or bubbles at or near the head studs.


My suspicion is that one or more of the intake gaskets has failed it its coolant sealing abilities, either due to installation error or cheap gaskets, or both. I further suspect that this is a recent event and that I have caught this before any serious damage has occurred. That does remain to be seen, however.

In this car it is far less expensive to pull the intake than it is to pull the heads. Intake, the engine stays in the car. Heads, the whole shiteree has to come out.

Of course, there's always the chance that I've already split the block.

I will post what I find.

Thanks again.

Murff

_________________
Anybody can restore a car. It takes a real man to cut one up.
'68 Futura, Enderle injected 351W
_____________________________________


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Murff on 12/7/06 8:39am ]</font>
 

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On 2006-12-06 17:38, Murff wrote:

Ok, I appreciate the feedback and concern.


In the meantime:

1) Full race engine

2) Crankcase is vented. The evac system is vented to the atmosphere (until pluming to header collectors is complete)

3) Washington state is damp. Buckets of rain & snow in past few weeks.

4) Pressure test not done properly?

My suspicion is that one or more of the intake gaskets has failed it its coolant sealing abilities, either due to installation error or cheap gaskets, or both. I further suspect that this is a recent event and that I have caught this before any serious damage has occurred. That does remain to be seen, however.

In this car it is far less expensive to pull the intake than it is to pull the heads. Intake, the engine stays in the car. Heads, the whole shiteree has to come out.

I will post what I find.

Thanks again.

Murff
_________________

What I meant on the coolant pressure test Murff is that it is not a good idea to leave the tester on the car while running as there is no automatic pressure relief (it only has a mechanical release-right?) as there is with the actual pressure cap. If you get a pressure spike, there is nowheres for the pressure to relieve itself, possibly leading to one of those industrial accidents you read about so often.

While the rocker arm cover vents are installed, there is no vacuum source to cause a draw from the crankcase is what I meant and each time you fire the engine, water vapor is formed and trapped.

Did you have to mount a 302 intake to the 351W? Is that the reason for the adaptor plates? Please let us know what you find.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
KULTULZ -

Sorry if I sounded a bit defensive, has been a long week.

Correct on the pressure relief, is mechanical. I understand what you are saying about the pressure now. I got lucky I guess in that it didn't go boom, unlucky in that it never built much pressure.

Correct again on the vac source on the rocker boxes. I understand.

The adapter plates were necessary because I was hell-bent on running this Enderle setup on a tunnel ram and there just aren't any tunnel rams available for the 351W. I actually started this engine build for a pre-war coupe that we had but later changed the engine over to this Falcon. Intake was already under construction by that point so we went forward with it. The 351 was going to be a 'test' motor for the coupe, then get de-tuned and put into a street car for the Missus. I still have a 455 Olds' that was going to go into the coupe after the chassis was sorted out. The Enderle was going to move to the Olds' along with a supercharger and then change over to alky.

I've never been a fan of owning belly-button cars so the Falcon may just end up keeping this setup. When's the last time you saw a mechanically injected little block Ford?

I also have no doubt that this non-stroked stock block 351 is going to scatter by mid-season next year. But we already have a plan to replace it with an Ohio Crankshaft prepped 434 short block. Not to go faster (my ticker stops me from getting a NHRA comp license) but to ensure some longevity. We'll still keep the injection, heads, and same cam profile though.

Will post my findings this weekend.

Murff
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Okee dokee folks, here's the latest, as promised.

Pumped up the pressure guage to 15 lbs on Thursday night. Checked it this AM and it was down to under 7 lbs and there was a puddle on the floor. Underside of hoses were dry but found remains of a small stream from front corner of drivers side intake adapter.

Popped the intake off, found more than a few intake nuts 'not completely tight'. Probably rattled themselves loose, don't recall having re-tightened them. This may be the cause of the gasket failure. Intake is studded, btw.

Pulled adapters, all four corner bolts had signs of moisture between threads and bolt head in the form of rust. All other bolts appreared fine. Adapter to head gaskets showed a pattern of coolant moving between gasket and head. Pattern was not as obvious as normal coolant to intake patern would be. Again, I think this was a recent event and I doubt if even a 1/2 cup of coolant found its way into the oil.

Cleaned all surfaces, cleaned bolts, reassembled using only 289 / 302 gaskets instead of the 351 / 302 combo I had used. The 351 gasket I had used, Fel Pro 1250 I think, had an extra portion of gasket cutting across the corner of the coolant opening that I had cut out. This may have also been a contibuting factor. Sprayed all four gaskets with high tack prior to assembly.

Intake is back on. Still need to reconnect linkages, hoses and such, and change oil and refill coolant. Got a little weary after all this 'hard work' and I'm takin's a break. I may wimp out and let it sit until tomorrow, or I may Man Up and get it done tonight, don't know yet.

Anyways, I feel pretty confident that I have found the cause(s) and have them corrected. Just thought I'd share.

Murff
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
It's fixed. All back together, good pressure, ran up to 190 degrees again, no teapot action, no motor milk on dipstick or under valve covers. Next item is to complete the crankcase evac system.

Interstingly enough, my idle is now down around 1200 in neutral and it still revs quick & easy. Apparently I've been leaking vacuum in the same area for quite a while.

I'll just chalk all this up to R & D, record it all in my binder and settle in and wait for the next crisis.

Thanks

Murff
 

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Did PRICE MOTORSPORTS offer their own gaskets or recommend the correct gaskets? Wondering...
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
PM recommended the 351W gaskets. with a Detroit Gasket number for reference, crossed over to the 1250 in Fel Pro.

The 290 / 302 gaskets did not have any material that needed to be trimmed except for the small tabs at the bottom of the gasket. Those had ro be trimmed to keep the gasket from setting too high due to resting on the lifter valley cover.

Murff
 
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